DiscussMormonism.com

The past few days there has been a long thread going on over at MAD concerning the issue of people growing up LDS and not knowing about Joseph Smith's polygamy and marrying other men's wives and such. Rather than focus on that, I'd like to talk about a recent post by charity. She said:

charity wrote:Aw, juliann. If you take those two gripes away, 90% of the critics won't have a thing to say, and then that will spoil all the fun! And when I think about it, I can't come up with the other 10%. Sigh.

The two gripes in question are Joseph Smith's behavior and the secrecy of church activities. Juliann's said:

Juliann wrote:::::whooosh!::::::

But let's not miss another opportunity. So many gripes...so few threads. Joseph Smith is disgusting, the church is hiding things. Did I leave anything out. Was something else actually said?

So I propose a list of everyone's arguments against the Church, because obviously 90% of the arguments aren't Joseph Smith's behavior and church secrecy (which I assumes means closed books and temple stuff). So try to avoid Joseph's behavior and temple/closed book stuff. Other than that, list off your reasons for criticizing the LDS church.


Here's a few off the top of my head:

1) Book of Mormon (dozens here by itself)
2) Book of Abraham
3) Lay priesthood (and their uneducated actions such as counseling, giving advise)
4) Church owning businesses/malls
5) Racist statements by Prophets
5) Modern Revelation (or lack thereof)
6) Sexism in the church (priesthood to men only, etc.)
7) LDS Prophets' statements on sexual issues
8) Kolob
9) De facto mandatory tithing
10) Callings (amount of time required, unwanted "jobs")
11) Questioning of kids on sexual issues
12) Mark Hoffmann episode


And I can't think of anymore at 1:20 in the morning. Help me out here people.

Thanks
Bond...James Bond

1. Polygamy, especially post-manifesto polygamy.

2. Organic evolution and creationism, as found in the standard works.

3. the Strengthening The Members Committee

Those are a few off the top of my head.

A post from my old blog:

Ten Reasons I Can't Be a Mormon Anymore

10. The Book of Abraham turns out to be a common Egyptian funeral text called the Breathing Permit of Horus.
9. Anachronisms and clear plagiarisms in the Book of Mormon.
8. Joseph Smith's history of claiming to be able to find buried treasure by looking at a rock in a hat, the same method he would later use to "translate" the Book of Mormon.
7. The wholesale stealing of Masonic rites for Joseph's inspired temple ceremony.
6. Joseph's practice of sending men on missions and then "marrying" their wives as soon as they had left town; see, for example, the story of Marinda Johnson Hyde.
5. Joseph's practice of "marrying" teenage girls behind his wife's back and promising eternal life to parents of teenagers for their consent.
4. Widespread use of church funds to enrich church leaders, from the days of the Kirtland Safety Society to Brigham Young and beyond.
3. The Mountain Meadows Massacre.
2. Racism, sexism, and homophobia.
1. Most of all, the church's pattern of hiding all of these things. If you grew up Mormon, you were never told any of these things. They're all true. And I won't be a part of that anymore.

So, polygamy/polyandry and hiding things comprise 30% of my reasons.

My difficulty believing in the church had absolutely nothing to do with either of these two issues.

My issues had more to do with the way the world works...

Evolution
God as an advanced Caucasian primate
The need to believe what is good is actually bad, and what is bad is actually good
The strong emphasis on selfishness (do things so you can get blessings)
The motivating factor for all behavior consisting of blessings in the afterlife
God as a being who in my opinion is a horrific, cruel, horrible, creature more liike the men of the tribal nomadic bands
The manipulative and coercive techniques to believe
The fact that people the world over are having powerful experiences similar to those of the LDS church
The afterlife nonsense
The changing, altering, confusing, convoluted, unknown teachings/doctrine/practices
The complexity of the teachings that do not make sense
The need to deny reality to embrace something that seems nonsensical
The thwarting of individual creativiy and unique gifts to embrace a rigid role for women
The inconsistencies of teachings
The lack of evidence that the LDS church is any different than any other religion
Teachings that are completely contradictory to the actualy working of our universe
A "plan" that makes absolutly no sense at all
The CKHL that is more like HELL than heaven
The belief of a "chosen, elite, special" group of God's favorite spirits
The premortal life that COMPLETELY makes no sense whatsoever to me
The idea of a war in heaven where we chose to come here to participate in this plan
The idea that families won't be together in heaven unless they have special words told to them in the temple
The idea that God separates loved ones unless they believe in Joseph Smith
The idea that little ceremonies and rituals that we do in this little tiny blink in the history of our universe determines the rest of eternity
The idea that God actually knew how this world would be and went with it
The idea of Joseph Smith being the actual judge in the afterlife
The idea that God's one and only true church would have such sorrow associated with it
The teaching that those with African ancestors and black skin would be considered less than Caucasian and other races
The whole Adam and Eve idea
The whole Garden of Eden in Missouri thing
The Tower of Babel stuff
The need for temple rituals by proxy
The focus on the church as opposed to the world
The requirement to pay to go to the temple
The rule to not allow a couple to get married outside the temple followed by a sealing (in the US)
The lack of diversity and the emphasis on a world conforming to the image of 1950's in Utah
The "worship" of church leaders
The disengenuous research and teachings (think Huge Nibley)
The fear based nature of belief
Kolob and Shinehah, and the whole Abrahamic astronomy nonsense
Masonic temple ceremony
Did I mention polygamy? (smile)


I could go on and on...

The fact that Joseph Smith was not a very good human being, and the fact that the church doesn't want anyone to find out the reality of the church's history is way down on the list of what was important to me.

~dancer~

1. The inability to document the single-most important event that's happened on earth since Christ's resurrection: the restoration of the M priesthood.

2. The lack of authority to start the church.

3. Sealings and marriages that were done prior to and without the restoration of the sealing power.

4. fostering an environment in which rewriting history is acceptable.

5. the persistent insistence that all is well in Zion, when anyone with half a brain can figure out that all is not only not well in Zion, but Zion is under condemnation because of the actions of the leaders.

edited to add:

6. the emphasis on outward appearances and finances in TRI's, instead of emphasizing the basics of the gospel.

7. speeches about teased hair when 3 blocks away, homeless children are hungry.

8. the lack of accountability on every level.

9. misuse of tithing funds, as in tithing used to pay for leaders' children's education.

10. members required to clean toilets

Runtu wrote:Ten Reasons I Can't Be a Mormon Anymore...

I've got 1:

1. No matter how hard i tried to get into it, i found church to be extremely boring, and a complete waste of time.

:)

A few of my major disagreements with the Church are:

Teaching that the LDS Church is the only way to exhaltation. I think that there will be more non-LDS Church members in the CKHL than LDS.

All of the emphasis placed on "keeping up appearances".

Non-member and non-temple recommend holders being unable to witness weddings.

Here's the updated list. I tried to remove any instances of multiple arguments or the same arguments that are similar in nature. To go along with the theme of my OP, I also tried to remove any Joseph Smith character issues or Church secrecy issues. I think we're proving that 90% of arguments don't come down to 1) church secrecy and 2) Joseph Smith is an perverted liar. Thanks for the responses.

If I deleted one of your arguments and you think it doesn't have to do with church secrecy and Joseph Smith's character, please throw it up here again.

1) Book of Mormon (dozens here by itself)
2) Book of Abraham
3) Lay priesthood (and their uneducated actions such as counseling, giving advise)
4) Church owning businesses/malls
5) Racist statements by Prophets
5) Modern Revelation (or lack thereof)
6) Sexism in the church (priesthood to men only, etc.)
7) LDS Prophets' statements on sexual issues
8) Kolob
9) De facto mandatory tithing
10) Callings (amount of time required, unwanted "jobs")
11) Questioning of kids on sexual issues
12) Mark Hoffmann episode
13) Polygamy, especially post-manifesto polygamy.
14). Organic evolution and creationism, as found in the standard works.
15) the Strengthening The Members Committee
16) The wholesale stealing of Masonic rites for Joseph's inspired temple ceremony.
17). Widespread use of church funds to enrich church leaders.
18) The Mountain Meadows Massacre.
19) Homophobia
20) God as an advanced Caucasian primate (image of God)
21) The need to believe what is good is actually bad, and what is bad is actually good
22) The strong emphasis on selfishness (do things so you can get blessings)
23) The motivating factor for all behavior consisting of blessings in the afterlife (ulterior motives for actions)
24) God as a being who in my opinion is a horrific, cruel, horrible, creature more liike the men of the tribal nomadic bands
25) The manipulative and coercive techniques to believe
26) The fact that people the world over are having powerful experiences similar to those of the LDS church (elitism)
27) The afterlife nonsense (Celestial, Terrestial, Telestial, Outer Darkness, etc)
28) The changing, altering, confusing, convoluted, unknown teachings/doctrine/practices (changes in God's teachings)
29) The complexity of the teachings that do not make sense
30) The need to deny reality to embrace something that seems nonsensical (suspension of reality)
31) The thwarting of individual creativiy and unique gifts to embrace a rigid role for women
32) The lack of evidence that the LDS church is any different than any other religion
33) A "plan" that makes absolutly no sense at all
34) The CKHL that is more like HELL than heaven
35) Elitism
36) The premortal life that COMPLETELY makes no sense whatsoever (Spirit children)
37) The idea of a war in heaven where we chose to come here to participate in this plan
38) Separation of families
39) The idea that little ceremonies and rituals that we do in this little tiny blink in the history of our universe determines the rest of eternity
40) The idea that God actually knew how this world would be and went with it
41) The idea that God's one and only true church would have such sorrow associated with it (depression)
42) The whole Adam and Eve idea
43) The whole Garden of Eden in Missouri thing
44) The Tower of Babel stuff
45) The need for temple rituals by proxy (including Baptism for the Dead)
46) The focus on the church as opposed to the world
47)The rule to not allow a couple to get married outside the temple followed by a sealing (in the US)
48) The lack of diversity and the emphasis on a world conforming to the image of 1950's in Utah
49) The "worship" of church leaders
50) The disengenuous research and teachings (think Huge Nibley)
51) The fear based nature of belief (punishment for not doing as the church commands)
52) The inability to document the single-most important event that's happened on earth since Christ's resurrection: the restoration of the M priesthood.
53) The lack of authority to start the church.
54) Sealings and marriages that were done prior to and without the restoration of the sealing power.
55) Rewriting of church history
56) the persistent insistence that all is well in Zion, when anyone with half a brain can figure out that all is not only not well in Zion, but Zion is under condemnation because of the actions of the leaders.
57) the emphasis on outward appearances and finances in TRI's, instead of emphasizing the basics of the gospel.
58) speeches about teased hair when 3 blocks away, homeless children are hungry. (speechs about unimportant matters by Church leaders)
59) the lack of accountability on every level.
60) No matter how hard i tried to get into it, i found church to be extremely boring, and a complete waste of time. (CHURCH IS BORING)
61) All of the emphasis placed on "keeping up appearances".
62) Non-member and non-temple recommend holders being unable to witness weddings.

Edited to add:
63) Adam-God
64) Kinderhook Plates
65) Blood atonement
66) Prophets speaking as Prophets vs speaking as men

I think what surprised me the most after leaving was that I began to understand just how hard I had to work to believe that the church was good, inspiring, and a positive force in the universe. I wanted to believe that because I believed in its doctrines and origins; but once those were gone, I realized that I was in a rather pointless meeting machine that pushed appearances over substance and "morality" over Christian character.

I may not be reading the list close enough, but i don't see kinderhook plates on there. or any problems related to the Book of Mormon (king jamesisms, anachronisms). adam god. blood atonement. prophets speaking as men vs. as prophets. 'purchasing' your way into heaven (tithing requirement).