The Dude is suspended from MAD. Is this "goading"

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_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

Jersey Girl wrote:Dude,

Unravel Orpheus' ball of yarn for me....where did you say Hinckley's words were "weird crap" on MAD or on this board?

Jersey Girl


On MAD, during a discussion about an upcoming PBS program (Frontline, I think) on "The Mormons".

CI said something like, "Every religion believes in weird crap" so it's hypocritical for Mormons to be criticized by the media.

I said something like, "I think the PBS program will be good like other Frontline programs have been, and it's sure to be better than watching Hinkley make uncomfortable denials about historcal LDS beliefs (you know, the 'weird crap')."

(referring to Hinckleys remark about "that's just a couplet" ... you know, weird crap)
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

The Dude wrote:Asbestosman, you read the book; do you think that was a good representation of Dawkins?


I've read the book. It is horrible. I've read other books by prominent athiests and he doesn't compare either in logic or style. Sorry. I'm so disappointed. I loved the Red Queen.

My eyes roll as he published mean-spirited emails to him. I can't imagine that Christianity can be measured by the rants of anonymous posters.

The section on Hitler was a laugher. Trying to prove he was a Christian without explaning away the athieism of Stalin. To me, the success or failure of Christianity is not measured by the success or failure of particular Christians.

He makes no attempt to account for the beliefs and philosopies of eastern religions. His assessment of Islam is one-dimensional.

He makes no attempt to attack the logic of Thomas Aquinas, the greatest advocate of the existence of God who ever lived. I think he mentioned him once. I don't think he's read him.

You previously mentioned his section on the "Moral Zeitigeist." Basically, he argues for the progression on knowledge and education, and that we live in enlightened times, and we don't need God to improve. That is a very naïve view of history. Islam was once the most enlightened civilization and religion in the world; now look where it is.

If you want lose faith in Christianity, this book is OK of you're into reading Harry Potter-level literature. Otherwise, read the writings of Bart Ehrman, Karen Armstrong, Robin Lane Fox and, of course, Bertrand Russell.


rcrocket
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

The Dude wrote:As for the book review in question, I think it's pretty lazy for Dan to waltz in and toss out "a nice little review of Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion (titled "The Dawkins Confusion") in the March/April 2007 issue of Books & Culture. Among other things, Plantinga faults Dawkins for fundamental logical errors" -- with no intention to discuss the actual book. It was a drive-by post (Nevo actually provided the link) just like we see from overeager anti-mormons who want us to read their latest "Jesus Saves" rant.

I think Dr. Peterson made it clear back in Feb. that such "drive-by posts" or rather announcements is all he intends to do from now on.

Furthermore, the example of "bad logic" that Dan gave doesn't seem to be anything Dawkins actually said, so should we trust Dan to trust Plantinga's ability to comprehend Dawkins' arguments and pick apart his logic? I don't think that quite adds up.

Asbestosman, you read the book; do you think that was a good representation of Dawkins?

As I no longer have the book in front of me, it is hard to give a straight answer ;)

I will say this: I think that Dawkins may have made that logical error. However, if Dawkins did make such an error, I think it was because he was careless with his wording. As I recall, his point was that the probability for the existence of God is miniscule. Of course that doesn't prove anything. However, he also made it clear that just because nobody can prove there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster does not mean we should assume the chances for it are equally likely. Nor should we live our lives in fear of what the FSM may want us to do--because what if he really does exist, etc.

I also note that Dawkins addressed the idea that God is simple being of one substance. I am disappointed that Plantinga did not address Dawkins objections here. In any case, the whole one substance defense fails for Mormonism.

I kind of liked RenegadeOfPhunk's review, but I am looking forward to FARMS's review. Perhaps they will be a bit more rigorous in addressing Dawkins strongest points instead of his semantic issues.
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_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

Okay rcrocket, I remember you said you were reading it. I've got complaints too. I was totally bored with the chapters on the possible origin of religion and what traits might have been selected (in terms of evolutionary psychology). It was nothing new, just the same old speculations, and really unnecessary to the overall argument. But it seemed to be included for the sake of completeness. Thank goodness it came in the middle of the book and not as part of the final chapters.

Mean-spirited emails from Christians show some of the persecution atheists endure. It's another piece of data, complementing the poll showing that, in terms of presidential candidacy, atheists are viewed with the most prejudice and disregard of any segment in America.

The focus on Hitler was an embellishment, made possible by the fact that there is evidence for some Christianity in him. The more important point is that a few bad apples don't prove a connection between atheism and monstrous leaders. It's basically illogical, right?

I remember a bit more about Thomas Aquinas than you apparently do. Some of the basic claims FOR the existence of god were claims that originated, or were formalized, by Thomas Aquinas. Dawkins covered Aquinas in those terms. But your right, he didn't sufficiently ad hominen Aquinas and that's probably why you aren't remembering.

You previously mentioned his section on the "Moral Zeitigeist." Basically, he argues for the progression on knowledge and education, and that we live in enlightened times, and we don't need God to improve. That is a very naïve view of history. Islam was once the most enlightened civilization and religion in the world; now look where it is.


The bold part is good support for Dawkins' point that we don't need God to improve.

I have another problem with the "Moral Zeitgeist" though. It's fine for looking back and seeing what has changed, but if you look around today and try to predict where things will go, it's as much as a rorschach test where you see what you want to see. If I think veganism is the morally correct lifestyle, then I'm going to think that in the future the Moral Zeitgeist will move that way. So it's actually a somewhat limited idea.

I've read some of those authors. Karen Armstrong is very good, but mostly I don't spend my time reading books that are purely atheism. So "The God Delusion" was a diversion for me, principally because I've been a fan of Dawkins ever since we read "The Selfish Gene" with Scott Woodward at BYU. I do like his logic and style.
_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

asbestosman wrote:I kind of liked RenegadeOfPhunk's review, but I am looking forward to FARMS's review. Perhaps they will be a bit more rigorous in addressing Dawkins strongest points instead of his semantic issues.


I liked RenegadeOfPhunk's review too. I wish I could go over there and point out why I think Dawkins is so hard on moderate religions. At least I can read the board now that I cleaned out my cookies.

As for the FARMS' review... how old is Richard Dawkins? FARMS didn't review Carl Sagan until he'd been dead for 10 years.
_Bryan Inks
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Post by _Bryan Inks »

beastie wrote:Dr. Peterson's latest contribution to the thread in question:

Over on a board that appears to be largely dedicated to obsessive-compulsive derision of this board and where accurate reading seems to be in short supply, there has been some cackling about my purportedly miraculous ability, in this thread, to comment negatively on Richard Dawkins's book without yet having read it. Of course, I've made precisely no comments directly about Dawkins's book. I simply called attention to a review of Dawkins by Alvin Plantinga, and summarily mentioned one or two of Plantinga's arguments.

I much prefer it when people respond to what I've written rather than to what they imagine me to have written. Unfortunately, that's surprisingly rare -- and particularly so on the board where these folks are making their remarks. (I'll pass over in charitable silence their latest conspiratorial speculations about me.)


Is anyone really suprised that despite his highly advanced and educated intellect, he is guilty of the very thing he accuses this board of?

DCP wrote:a board that appears to be largely dedicated to obsessive-compulsive derision of this board


This statement would not be funny if it wasn't for irony.

DCP wrote:where accurate reading seems to be in short supply, there has been some cackling about my purportedly miraculous ability, in this thread, to comment negatively on Richard Dawkins's book without yet having read it. Of course, I've made precisely no comments directly about Dawkins's book.


Apparently, we sodomite apostates aren't the only ones that are lacking in the "reading comprehension" area. May I suggest you open your eyes next time you come over here? I'm not talking your mind's eye or a metaphysical chakra. I'm talking your corporeal eyes. I've found that when my eyes are open, my reading comprehension skyrockets.

Just a suggestion for our favorite lurker.
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

The Dude wrote:But your right, he didn't sufficiently ad hominen Aquinas and that's probably why you aren't remembering.


Well, that's not a nice crack. I think that it is "you're." A common error.

I think "ad hominem" [not "ad hominen'] is an adjective, not a verb. But, who's keeping track of such gaffes?

In any event, by definition one cannot assert ad hominem arguments against anonymous posters.

rcrocket
_Bryan Inks
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Post by _Bryan Inks »

rcrocket wrote:In any event, by definition one cannot assert ad hominem arguments against anonymous posters.

rcrocket


And your evidence for this?

You know, Kettle, I'm finding myself astounded at the number of times you are being asked, not just by myself, for proof of your claims.

I'm still waiting on your proof that all critics of Mormonism are guilty of "lazy research".

Should I hold my breath for your proof that you can't insult a poster who doesn't use his real name?
_It occurs to me . . .
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Post by _It occurs to me . . . »

asbestosman wrote:Dr. Peterson already answered on that thread. It appears I was right. Dr. Peterson did not intend to do a review in that thread. He only offered information about someone else who had and who he seems to hold some degree of respect for.

In other words, Dr. Peterson didn't just pull down a review from the internet. Dr. Peterson has reason to believe that the reviewer knows what he's talking about.


My purpose in bringing this information here, was not to discuss Dr. Peterson's response or lack thereof. I don't have a problem with that. It just seemed to be such on over reaction on the part of the moderators. I don't see how dialogue can continue if you are disciplined for asking whether or not someone has read a book.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

It occurs to me . . . wrote:
asbestosman wrote:Dr. Peterson already answered on that thread. It appears I was right. Dr. Peterson did not intend to do a review in that thread. He only offered information about someone else who had and who he seems to hold some degree of respect for.

In other words, Dr. Peterson didn't just pull down a review from the internet. Dr. Peterson has reason to believe that the reviewer knows what he's talking about.


My purpose in bringing this information here, was not to discuss Dr. Peterson's response or lack thereof. I don't have a problem with that. It just seemed to be such on over reaction on the part of the moderators. I don't see how dialogue can continue if you are disciplined for asking whether or not someone has read a book.


What ever gave you the idea that MAD board was about dialogue?
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