Certainly from a secular stand point there are absurdities in the Book of Mormon. The journey of the Jardites seems hard to account for. The journey by Lehi's family seems more plausible. The account of there being light for a day and a nigh and a day can only be attributed to the miraculous and is not explainable to me. I guess I would have to say there are no more absurdities in the Book of Mormon then there are in the Bible. Well, the Bible does have some grounding in historical fact and places in the Bible we know existed. The Book of Mormon has scant evidence for it being a true historical record and an account of real people. Both books must be taken ultimately on faith to be believed.
Yes the Bible is also filled with magical thinking.
I get the impression from your response that you think of the Bible as a bench-mark. So if God exists in the Bible, God must be true. If a man Jesus, can come back from the dead as per the Bible, it must be true.
By magical thinking I’m referring to things which happen which appear to defy the physical laws of nature. God as an entity which communicates and interacts with man is magical thinking, Jesus’s resurrection is magical thinking, Jesus appearing in America, is magical thinking. Anything at all which defies what we rationally appreciate to be within the physical laws of nature and can not be explained in any comprehensible naturalistic way is magical thinking.
If we see a magic trick and it appears to defies physical laws and we can not figure out how it is done, to assume the magician has supernatural powers and that’s how he/she accomplished the trick is magical thinking.
This is why Jason it’s difficult for us to discuss J.Smith's character, the Book of Mormon, the D& C rationally. You have some irrational thinking which you don’t appreciate is irrational.
You haven’t given up magical thinking. This is one of the reasons you are unable to appreciate the Book of Mormon is a hoax. You are looking at it from the perspective that it’s true, not from a skeptical rational perspective.
Your last line is quite telling, “Both books must be taken ultimately on faith to be believed.” In otherwords you are telling me you believe the Book of Mormon to be true despite lack of evidence, despite it requiring magical thinking to do so. That is an irrational approach, which you see no problem with. What you call “secular thinking” is the rational approach.
Q: Do you think J. Smith was a sincere con man with his night time head in the hat treasure seeking activity. By that I mean to you think he truly believed he had the capability of finding treasure underground by the manner he employed?
I think it is probable that he did believe he had some ability to do this. I do not know this for certain.
So you do think he was sincere, that he thought he could actually could find buried treasures with the seer stone in a hat prop.
Well then you don’t acknowledge a hoax, being played upon marks. You do not view J. smith as a con artist.
I could agree Jason that initially someone might believe they have special powers, but overtime, when for example treasures don't turn up, one would catch on, that those powers don’t exist. The brain recognizes and forms conclusions based on repeated observable patterns. Is there any evidence that Smith was actually successful in these endeavours? Why do you think he was charged and taken to court over it?
Q: How long did J. Smith conduct this night time treasure seeking activity for?
Off the top of my head probably for 5-8 year off and on.
In that case don't you think he had ample opportunaty to test his magical abilities? The reason length of time is also important is because it shows J. Smith’s ability to successfully keep to a con over long periods of time, without admitting to it. Of course, you don’t appreciate it was all a con on his part. So of course, you are going to interpret information entirely different to me. You are going to take Smith at his word. If he says something in the D & C, you are going to interpret it as being true, rather than all part of a manipulative skillfully played out con.
Q: Do you think his family and friends didn't appreciate it was a con?
I think his father and his friends believed it. He had partners in this activity in the Palmyra vicinity that believed he and another young women, I forget her name, had abilities. In fact when he allegedly had the plates for the Book of Mormon locals believed he had them because the came after them a number of times. Some of them believed that they had a right in a share of the plated because they were partner in the treasure seeking activity.
It is understandable that J. Smith's claims to finding gold plates, would be believed and accomplice treasure seekers would feel they had a right to a share in the profit. The story put out by Smith and family that they were hounded for these plates is contradicted by P. Tucker who says there really wasn’t much interest in the plates in the town. If you want I could find and quote Tucker on this but I don’t think you’d be interested or believe him.
Q. Do you think there might have been some other benefit besides payment from his marks for this treasure seeking activity?
Prestige, fame, etc all could have been benefits.
P. Tucker mentions that meat..was an incentive for night time treasure seeking. Yup meat. Desert_vulture mentioned this in his post above. Smith would claim a lamb needed to be slaughtered and the blood sprinkled around where they dug. After the meat was taken home for consumption. In addition farms would be missing live stock and it was suspected that the night time treasure seekers were the culprits. So perhaps it wasn’t just buried treasure which motivated these men in their treasure seeking activity. Why does one need to search at night?
Q. Did Smith ever come clean about this activity being a con..if so to whom?
The only account I know of is the admission to his Father in Law. In his official history he denies treasure seeking activity but for his employment by the Knight family.
I believe there were some others, Peter Ingersol I think. I believe Smith gave a statement in court as well owning up to it being a con. There are a few others that I’ve read but off the top of my head, I don’t remember the names. It seems to me that it is established fact that Smith conducted these night time treasure seeking trips with some other men. If Smith denied it, it suggest Smith had no problem lying.