Joseph Smith's Conspiracy

[_Runtu]

What bothers me the most is the way some apologists trivialize this issue by saying that those of us who find Joseph's behavior outrageous are saying that he risked everything for a little "nookie" on the side. For me, the way Joseph practiced both polygamy and polyandry shows just how narcissistic he was. He engaged in this behavior literally for the hell of it. He knew he had the power to get people to do whatever he wanted them to do, no matter what their morals and conscience told them. And he was right.

Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac, and literally so in Joseph Smith's case.

[_marg]

None of the women involved were raised in an environment that accepted plural marriage or anything similiar thereto. All of these women were converts, women who were taught to be monogamous and true to their marriage vows. Half of Joseph's wives were girls, teenagers, vulnerable, yet even those with fathers and brothers to protect them were placed in harms way. The girls bear no shame; their relatives who agreed to this practice are the ones who will have to answer for their lack of protection.

Harmony, J. Smith had the authority of the Bible as well as his accepted authority to not only promote polygyny but promote it as virtuous. The fact that he kept it secret is not a stumbling block for devout followers.

previous: In which I firmly believed in prophets, in God, in the Bible, in Jesus, an afterlife, the 3 glories of heaven... I would in all likihood have gone along with polygamy.

Not in 1831, not in 1835, not in 1844. Polygamy was hidden, secret, lied about, whispered about, gossiped about. If it was acceptable, there is no reason for the secrecy. The good people of the church (as in all those not in on the secret kept hidden from everyone else) suffered and were persecuted because of the not-so-secret wickedness of their leader.

Do you really think polygyny was the main problem why Mormons were persecuted. They were persecuted from the beginning and driven out of many places before polygyny ever became a problem. It was kept secret because it was a tough sell for Smith , not everyone would accept it. But look at the Mormons on message boards even now who have no problem rationalizing it as ethical and from God.

previous: If the goal is to increase membership and birth rates for the Mormon church..polygamy works.

Actually, no it doesn't. But even if it did, Joseph has no claimed progeny from any wife except Emma, so increasing membership and birth rates could not have been the reason he did it, or hid it.

I think Smith did it for the sex,and the thrill of power and manipulation of people. And maybe other men did as well. But if you look at a closed community and if that community practices polygyny..eventually pressure results where men are without women and the only place to find them is outside the group. That would take time and compliance from most to start occuring. Look at closed polygamous groups now, it is difficult for them to recruit women from the outside ...so what is happening is the young men don't have women and the pressure is to get rid of the young men. If it was legal there would be lots of pressure in current polygamous communities to seek women from the outside.. But if they were to do that now a days Governments would step in.

previously: Eventually as many women are wedded to one man there will be pressure for to seek women outside of the Mormon church.

What actually happened is what is happening in FLDS today: they disenfranchised their young men, as all the young women were taken by the old men. Young men had no opportunity to marry. Without the interference from the US government, the LDS church collapses in on itself.

There is a difference between then and now, laws prohibit and governments would react swifty to recruitment of women if that became a problem. Polygyny wasn't successful. But J. Smith may very well have reasoned it would end up increasing birth rate for Mormons, if it caught on.

previous: The women involved weren't behaving immorally, they were the victims.

I agree they were victims, but without their cooperation, it doesn't happen. They are as guilty as the men, in that regard. And as greedy for a leg up on the social ladder.

Well from my perspective Harmony, everyone in the church is guilty of supporting and perpetuating the church. I think it's an abusive organization which indoctrinates the young with nonsense. People back then accepted Smith as ultimate authority, accepted the Bible. Those who agreed to this were not thinking they were doing anything immoral.

previously: They weren't hurting anyone else.

Tell that to the FLDS families. Tell that to the displaced boys.

In those days only a few were practicing relative to the community so there wasn’t a problem of significant number of unattached men.

previous: J. Smith presented it as a virtuous thing to do, something god wanted for his chosen people. It's not a far step from accepting as true, a Mormon God, the celestial kingdoms, J. Smith as prophet, the BoMas sacred, Jesus a son of God, etc. to accepting polygamy is the right thing to do if it's viewed as being virtuous.

Joseph lied. What else is new?

J. Smith lied about lots of things, yet some of it, even you has bought hook, line and sinker.

previously: The only people who failed are those who knew better than it was a proposal from a God.

The ones who failed were those who ignored their inner promptings to avoid it at all costs. And the ones who should have protected the young, the innocent, and the weak, and didn't.

Well, parents are failing their kids and not protecting them from the indoctrination of religious organizations built upon myths and lies.

previously: If you assume people should have known better and we carry that reasoning forward then a lot of Mormons are failing who should know better.

It's called accepting responsibility for one's actions. It's called letting the chips fall where they may.

People who are conditioned from a young age with religious indoctrination oftentimes do not question religious authority. Mormonism is not noted for encouraging its member to question Church authority. Gaz has a thread in the upper forum in which he makes it clear he has no problem rationalizing and justifying polygyny when it was practiced. He sees nothing unethical or wrong about it. I believe he rationalizes it was an order from God.

[_harmony]

None of the women involved were raised in an environment that accepted plural marriage or anything similiar thereto. All of these women were converts, women who were taught to be monogamous and true to their marriage vows. Half of Joseph's wives were girls, teenagers, vulnerable, yet even those with fathers and brothers to protect them were placed in harms way. The girls bear no shame; their relatives who agreed to this practice are the ones who will have to answer for their lack of protection.

Harmony, J. Smith had the authority of the Bible as well as his accepted authority to not only promote polygyny but promote it as virtuous. The fact that he kept it secret is not a stumbling block for devout followers.

The fact that he kept it a secret from those devout followers (and the inclusion of the Article of Marriage over Joseph's signature in the 1835 Book of Commandments) shows that it was a stumbling block for most of the membership. It was still a stumbling block for the Saints in 1852 when Brigham introduced it church-wide, but the Saints didn't exactly have a whole lotta choice by then, since they were a thousand miles from anything else. Women bore the burden of Brigham's polygamy, but the women (not the girls) share the shame of Joseph's. Without their cooperation, it doesn't happen.

previous: In which I firmly believed in prophets, in God, in the Bible, in Jesus, an afterlife, the 3 glories of heaven... I would in all likihood have gone along with polygamy.

Not in 1831, not in 1835, not in 1844. Polygamy was hidden, secret, lied about, whispered about, gossiped about. If it was acceptable, there is no reason for the secrecy. The good people of the church (as in all those not in on the secret kept hidden from everyone else) suffered and were persecuted because of the not-so-secret wickedness of their leader.

Do you really think polygyny was the main problem why Mormons were persecuted. They were persecuted from the beginning and driven out of many places before polygyny ever became a problem. It was kept secret because it was a tough sell for Smith , not everyone would accept it. But look at the Mormons on message boards even now who have no problem rationalizing it as ethical and from God.

But you just got through saying it wasn't a stumbling block Marg. It has to be one or the other; it can't be both a stumbling block and not a stumbling block.

previous: If the goal is to increase membership and birth rates for the Mormon church..polygamy works.

Actually, no it doesn't. But even if it did, Joseph has no claimed progeny from any wife except Emma, so increasing membership and birth rates could not have been the reason he did it, or hid it.

I think Smith did it for the sex,and the thrill of power and manipulation of people. And maybe other men did as well. But if you look at a closed community and if that community practices polygyny..eventually pressure results where men are without women and the only place to find them is outside the group. That would take time and compliance from most to start occuring. Look at closed polygamous groups now, it is difficult for them to recruit women from the outside ...so what is happening is the young men don't have women and the pressure is to get rid of the young men. If it was legal there would be lots of pressure in current polygamous communities to seek women from the outside.. But if they were to do that now a days Governments would step in.

They still recruit women. One of the women on a board I once posted on joined the TLC, became the 3rd (or was it 4th?) wife, and had at least one child while in that relationship. I don't know if she still is part of that group. The group itself has dwindled.

previously: Eventually as many women are wedded to one man there will be pressure for to seek women outside of the Mormon church.

What actually happened is what is happening in FLDS today: they disenfranchised their young men, as all the young women were taken by the old men. Young men had no opportunity to marry. Without the interference from the US government, the LDS church collapses in on itself.

There is a difference between then and now, laws prohibit and governments would react swifty to recruitment of women if that became a problem. Polygyny wasn't successful. But J. Smith may very well have reasoned it would end up increasing birth rate for Mormons, if it caught on.

I doubt that Joseph thought any further ahead than his own needs. What polygamy does is increase the number of progeny born to specific men, not increase the birth rate in general.

previous: The women involved weren't behaving immorally, they were the victims.

I agree they were victims, but without their cooperation, it doesn't happen. They are as guilty as the men, in that regard. And as greedy for a leg up on the social ladder.

Well from my perspective Harmony, everyone in the church is guilty of supporting and perpetuating the church. I think it's an abusive organization which indoctrinates the young with nonsense. People back then accepted Smith as ultimate authority, accepted the Bible. Those who agreed to this were not thinking they were doing anything immoral.

On the contrary, they knew they doing something totally immoral, or at least well outside the societal values of the time. They hid it; they knew what they doing was grounds for criticism from within their own group, and that many would defect if they knew the abomination, as the Book of Mormon referred to the Principle, was alive with their leadership.

previous: J. Smith presented it as a virtuous thing to do, something god wanted for his chosen people. It's not a far step from accepting as true, a Mormon God, the celestial kingdoms, J. Smith as prophet, the BoMas sacred, Jesus a son of God, etc. to accepting polygamy is the right thing to do if it's viewed as being virtuous.

Joseph lied. What else is new?

J. Smith lied about lots of things, yet some of it, even you has bought hook, line and sinker.

Yes, and those who joined in polygamy with him deserve to be cloaked with shame, just as he deserves to be. Those who shake their heads at those poor dead Mormon victims are missing the point. Without their cooperation, it doesn't happen.

previously: The only people who failed are those who knew better than it was a proposal from a God.

The ones who failed were those who ignored their inner promptings to avoid it at all costs. And the ones who should have protected the young, the innocent, and the weak, and didn't.

Well, parents are failing their kids and not protecting them from the indoctrination of religious organizations built upon myths and lies.

Inasmuch as they indoctrinate their children about that which is detrimental to themselves and to society, I agree.

previously: If you assume people should have known better and we carry that reasoning forward then a lot of Mormons are failing who should know better.

It's called accepting responsibility for one's actions. It's called letting the chips fall where they may.

People who are conditioned from a young age with religious indoctrination oftentimes do not question religious authority.

Mormons at that time were not so conditioned and were not indoctrinated. They followed Joseph with eyes open, unclouded by generations of belief in his message.

Mormonism is not noted for encouraging its member to question Church authority. Gaz has a thread in the upper forum in which he makes it clear he has no problem rationalizing and justifying polygyny when it was practiced. He sees nothing unethical or wrong about it. I believe he rationalizes it was an order from God.

Gaz wasn't alive then, so Gaz carries no guilt or shame. Gaz didn't participate. Gaz can view the Principle from the distance of a couple of hundred years, and make any rationalizations he chooses. That doesn't make Sec 132 a revelation and that doesn't erase Joseph's guilt and shame and the guilt and shame of those who participated with him in living the lie.

[_Inconceivable]

[

THAT is part of the big question - You asked: "What makes you think it was God that created the test?" My answer is that I thought He had given me clues over my life that Joseph Smith IS (not was) a prophet. I've discovered I was pretty much dead wrong about where I got those whisperings.

If it is not the church OF Joseph Smith, it is without question the church WITH Joseph Smith. Official doctrine dictates that his authenticity as a FAITHFUL prophet, seer and revelator is an integral part of revealed testimony. (yak).

That is why my faith in "the church" is all but destroyed - at least until I can sort through the peices of clay and iron.

[_harmony]

THAT is part of the big question - You asked: "What makes you think it was God that created the test?" My answer is that I've thought He has given me clues over my life that Joseph Smith IS (not was) a prophet. I've discovered I was pretty much dead wrong about where I got those whisperings.

If it is not the church OF Joseph Smith, it is without question the church WITH Joseph Smith. Official doctrine dictates that his authenticity as a FAITHFUL prophet, seer and revelator is an integral part of revealed testimony. (yak).

That is why my faith in "the church" is all but destroyed - at least until I can sort through the peices of clay and iron.

I get around that by my understanding that it is the gospel of Jesus Christ that I follow or at least try to, not the gospel of Joseph Smith; it is the Church of Jesus Christ that I am a member of, not the Church of Joseph Smith. The temple recommend questions no longer require that I affirm Joseph as a prophet; the question addresses the restoration, not the prophet. I appreciate that distinction.

Personally, I think Pres Benson was right when he said the church was under condemnation. I think his reason for it being under condemnation is incorrect, but I think he got the overall concept correct. There is so much manmade doctrine mixed in with that which is God-breathed now, it's hard to untangle the web. I think that much of what Joseph started was God-breathed, but his entanglement with Fanny started a downward slide that didn't stop until God withdrew his protection and allowed the mobs to kill him. We've had men tinkering with his legacy ever since, even the parts that started out from legitimate revelations, until what we have is a shadow of what it could be. Instead of finding the impure and cutting it out, though, our leaders are more inclined to worry about money and shopping malls. The sham of our leadership is a disgrace.

[_Inconceivable]

Personally, I think Pres Benson was right when he said the church was under condemnation. I think his reason for it being under condemnation is incorrect, but I think he got the overall concept correct. There is so much manmade doctrine mixed in with that which is God-breathed now, it's hard to untangle the web. I think that much of what Joseph started was God-breathed, but his entanglement with Fanny started a downward slide that didn't stop until God withdrew his protection and allowed the mobs to kill him. We've had men tinkering with his legacy ever since, even the parts that started out from legitimate revelations, until what we have is a shadow of what it could be. Instead of finding the impure and cutting it out, though, our leaders are more inclined to worry about money and shopping malls. The sham of our leadership is a disgrace.

I understand your rational, but how did you get the round peg to fit in the square hole?

How is it that you (we) can see the predicament so clearly and those that are called by the God of Heaven and Earth are so, well.. blind guides..?

[_harmony]

I understand your rational, but how did you get the round peg to fit in the square hole?

How is it that you (we) can see the predicament so clearly and those that are called by the God of Heaven and Earth are so, well.. blind guides..?

We all get only what we ask for, and we have to recognize and accept the answer when it comes. They have to run the church; I only have to run my life. So... I asked questions about stuff I didn't understand. I don't think they ask the same questions. There was no answer I wouldn't accept. I think there are answers they wouldn't accept. I only have to reconcile the answer with myself; they have to come to some sort of agreement between 15 people.