Joseph Smith's Conspiracy

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_Analytics
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Joseph Smith's Conspiracy

Post by _Analytics »

In another thread, Wade implied that Joseph Smith and his faithful insiders wouldn't have lied about polygamy. Perhaps they would have tried to mislead people with semantics ("it depends upon what the definition of is is"), but they wouldn't out-right lie.

Is that consistent with the evidence?

In the Spring of 1844, William Law and other highly respected insiders were blowing the whistle on Joseph Smith with regards to the doctrine and practice polygamy. At the time, Joseph Smith and those faithful to him vehemently denied these accusations. Law et. al. described an alleged secret revelation in detail. Their description matched the revelation that was first publicly read in 1852 and is now known as Section 132. Law et. al. described a pattern of Joseph Smith and other top leaders entering into secret marriages. While we don’t know the specifics of all of Joseph’s marriages, we now know that he did enter into a few dozen secret polygamous relationships, just as Law described.

On Sunday, May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith responded to these accusations in a sermon which is now published in History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412.

In this speech, he made explicit and implicit denials of polygamy.
I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.

This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this….

What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.


Now, one could argue that these weren't really lies. Perhaps Joseph Smith meant that he didn't have seven wives, he really had 39, only one of which he could find in the audience at that moment.

The most interesting thing about this sermon is that Joseph Smith claimed that he could literally prove that he wasn’t involved in polygamy. It’s difficult to prove a negative, but Joseph was prepared to do it. He said,

For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me.


What are the possibilities here? I can think of the following.

1- Joseph Smith was being honest, the record is accurate and comprehensive, and thus proves that Joseph Smith never taught nor practiced polygamy.

2- The record is in fact accurate and comprehensive, and gives a detailed account of everything he did and said, including all of his marriages, all of his private teachings, and all of his rendezvous.

3- Joseph Smith was lying in this sermon and there really wasn’t a comprehensive record of his dealings for these three years.

4- Joseph Smith and his scribes engaged in an elaborate conspiracy so that he could teach and practice polygamy and simultaneously “prove” that he did no such thing.

This thread is open to the question about whether or not Joseph was engaged in a conspiracy to mislead potential converts, mainstream church members, and the world at large about his secret relationships with members of the opposite sex, whether he ever intended for the church to be honest about polygamy, whether there were ever any church records, marriage certificates, or contemporanous accounts by his scribes for any of his polygamous "marriages", and whether or not the people who were faithful insiders have any credibility when they denied polygamy, either in general or in any specific case (such as with Martha Brotherton).

It is beyond the scope of the thread to rationalize or justify Smith's alleged dishonesty.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

From what I understand, the apologist argument here is that Joseph Smith DID lie during this sermon. I have heard of two "justified reasons" for why he lied.

1. He lied to protect himself, his plural wives, and those who knew about his plural wives from threatened legal and bodily harm.

2. The Lord was not "ready" for Joseph to reveal the Plural Marriage law to the masses.

Edited to add---This is the first I have heard of this so-called "hour by hour documentation" of Joseph's whereabouts. Does anyone have knowledge of where this might have ended up? That would be interesting to read.

It would certainly add a piece to a very muddled puzzle.
_Analytics
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Post by _Analytics »

liz3564 wrote:From what I understand, the apologist argument here is that Joseph Smith DID lie during this sermon. I have heard of two "justified reasons" for why he lied.

1. He lied to protect himself, his plural wives, and those who knew about his plural wives from threatened legal and bodily harm.

2. The Lord was not "ready" for Joseph to reveal the Plural Marriage law to the masses.

Edited to add---This is the first I have heard of this so-called "hour by hour documentation" of Joseph's whereabouts. Does anyone have knowledge of where this might have ended up? That would be interesting to read.

It would certainly add a piece to a very muddled puzzle.


In regards to this, Kerry Shirts said,

All in all, his accusations of him committing adultery is what he is denying. I honestly don't see this as his denying polygamy at all.


http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/polygamy.htm
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Hmmm....Maybe Kerry can comment here on this. My question is, Why did Joseph specifically speak about his lack of involvement with "spiritual wifery" if he was only referring to adultery?

And if I am misreading this statement, how am I misreading it?
_Analytics
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Post by _Analytics »

liz3564 wrote:Hmmm....Maybe Kerry can comment here on this. My question is, Why did Joseph specifically speak about his lack of involvement with "spiritual wifery" if he was only referring to adultery?

And if I am misreading this statement, how am I misreading it?


The way some people justify this is that “spiritual wivery” refers to sham marriages that were engaged in for illicit purposes. Joseph Smith wasn’t doing that—he was doing the opposite, namely entering into eternally valid marriages because he was commanded to do so by God. In general, they say that Joseph was being accused of doing immoral things, and that he could rightfully deny the accusations because he wasn’t doing anything immoral, rather he was following genuine commandments from God.

Saying words in order to mislead. Sounds like lying to me.
_cksalmon
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Post by _cksalmon »

I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.


Over at the old FAIRboard, one LDS argued about the above passage that, clearly, Joseph Smith was referring to a time very early on in his marriage to Emma ("I had not been married scarcely five minutes"); therefore, he was denying that he has multiple wives at that time. He was not suggesting, per this person's argument, that (at the time of the sermon) he had no multiple wives.

I thought it was a creative argument, but silly. Creatively silly.

Best.

CKS
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Analytics wrote:
liz3564 wrote:Hmmm....Maybe Kerry can comment here on this. My question is, Why did Joseph specifically speak about his lack of involvement with "spiritual wifery" if he was only referring to adultery?

And if I am misreading this statement, how am I misreading it?


The way some people justify this is that “spiritual wivery” refers to sham marriages that were engaged in for illicit purposes. Joseph Smith wasn’t doing that—he was doing the opposite, namely entering into eternally valid marriages because he was commanded to do so by God. In general, they say that Joseph was being accused of doing immoral things, and that he could rightfully deny the accusations because he wasn’t doing anything immoral, rather he was following genuine commandments from God.

Saying words in order to mislead. Sounds like lying to me.


LOL! It sounds like between the two of us, we could make a couple of decent apologists!

;)

Sorry...couldn't resist.
_wenglund
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Re: Joseph Smith's Conspiracy

Post by _wenglund »

Analytics wrote:In another thread, Wade implied that Joseph Smith and his faithful insiders wouldn't have lied about polygamy. Perhaps they would have tried to mislead people with semantics ("it depends upon what the definition of is is"), but they wouldn't out-right lie.


Not surprising, I recognize very little of what you attribute to me in those two sentences. Some might consider this kind of distortion to be a lie. But, I prefer "nicer" (as Runtu may call it) ways of viewing it--i.e. as a semantic misunderstanding on your part. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Let's simplify things a bit. Suppose I were NOT to have been legally married (i.e. via legal procedures and by those legally authorized by the state to perform marriages) to multiple women, but only to one woman. However, I was sealed to multiple women in respective religious ceremonies, though I never lived with the sealed women like husband and wives, and never had sexual relations with those sealed women.

And, suppose I was concerned about how what I had done may be mis-interpreted and misused by others for illicite purposes as well as misconstrued by others who may use it as a stick to damage my reputation and rile the public in ways that threatened my safety and the peace and safety of my friends and loved-ones.

1) Would I be lying to say that I hadn't committed adultry?

2) Would I be lying to say that I hadn't participated in "spirit wifery" (which, as I understand it, involves illicate sexual relations under the guise of having been "spiritually married"--which in some people's case did not involve a formal religious ceremony nor the actual permission of the prophet)?

3) Would I be lying to say that I hadn't practiced polygamy or plural marriage (in the legal sense of the word, though I may at times alternately speak of the sealings as a type of "marriage")?

4) If I made reference to accusations of polygamy and "spiritual wifery" made prior to the sealings, would I be lying to say that those accusations were false?

5) Would I be playing semantics when saying each of these things, particularly given my reasonable intent to keep my practice secret?

6) Would my saying each of these things, and my desire to keep my practice secret, entirely eliminate any credibility in my denying specific claims by certain parties about being proposed to by someone else, or that I had authorized the practice of "spiritual wifery" in some cases? In other words, is there no credible way that I could assert, as a party principly invovled, that someone was lying about such things were they to be lying about them?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Let's say i have a co-worker give me oral sex.

Let's say my wife accuses me of having sex with a co-worker

Let's say that if she finds out the truth, she will kill me (i fear for my life)

Would it be lying if i deny that I had sex with the co-worker?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
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