simple minded Book of Mormon apologetics

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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

beastie wrote:No problem, cthulu.

by the way, another "whack-a-mole" argument has popped back up on the same thread: "what would a nephite pot look like?" (or jade necklace)

I tried to address this fallacious argument at length on this thread, shortly before giving up entirely on MAD:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 1404&st=60

On this linked thread, I shared the fact that archaeologists can, and do, detect foreign populations by material evidence. And if no material evidence exists, then scholars do not accept the existence of the foreign populations.


I thought that was an excellent thread. And it was fascinating that the apologists did not grasp the rather simple premise of your argument. And when I pointed out that they weren't addressing your argument, I was told I was merely a cheerleader.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_cacheman
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Post by _cacheman »

Any future evidence that will be supportive of the Book of Mormon will have to dramatically rewrite everything scholars currently accept about ancient Mesoamerica. This is what believers don’t seem to grasp.

While I'm not sure if *everything* would need to be rewritten, I understand what you are saying here. It would be nice to see more acknowledgement of the strength of your argument from LDS believers.

Certainly people can come to different conclusions, and bias/perspective is a large factor.

But the hard fact of reality is that not all conclusions are equally viable or coherent with known data. People can believe that the earth is six thousand years old, and provide scads of supporting “evidence” for their belief. But that does not mean that the young earth belief is as viable or coherent with known data.

Oh, I agree. In my agreement with Wade, I was simply pointing out that the argument her amun was using is a way to retain the ability to believe that with *possible* future evidence, it might be *possible* to come to different conclusions. If he's arguing probability, then that's a whole nuther story that would need to be backed up with evidence.

Again, I think that any argument like that should be prefaced with an acknowledgement that such an argument wouldn't even be necessary except in the face of a much stronger counter argument.

cacheman
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I thought that was an excellent thread. And it was fascinating that the apologists did not grasp the rather simple premise of your argument. And when I pointed out that they weren't addressing your argument, I was told I was merely a cheerleader.


Rah, rah! (by the way, do the MAD mods ever object to believer "cheerleading"?)

What I found most amazing, and, in its own way, disheartening about the thread was how Juliann kept offering "evidence" that supposedly disproved my argument. That, in and of itself, isn't odd, but what was amazing was how the articles she cited actually supported my argument. Mind-boggling.

While I'm not sure if *everything* would need to be rewritten, I understand what you are saying here. It would be nice to see more acknowledgement of the strength of your argument from LDS believers.


Well, yes, I guess we wouldn't have to rewrite the fact that there were living, breathing, walking-on-all-fours human beings creating civilizations during the time period. And socially complex polities did exist. Religion meant everything. They fought a lot. Those things wouldn't have to be rewritten, but they are so hopelessly generic as to be meaningless. What else can you think of that wouldn't have to be rewritten?


Oh, I agree. In my agreement with Wade, I was simply pointing out that the argument her amun was using is a way to retain the ability to believe that with *possible* future evidence, it might be *possible* to come to different conclusions. If he's arguing probability, then that's a whole nuther story that would need to be backed up with evidence.

Again, I think that any argument like that should be prefaced with an acknowledgement that such an argument wouldn't even be necessary except in the face of a much stronger counter argument.


Yes, I agree. Some critic on MAD (was it you?) used to frequently point out that believers tend to conflate possibility with probability, in regards to this conversation.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Oh, goodie. Now Charity is linking an article by Sorenson as definitive proof of cross-atlantic contact.

by the way, I'm not sure why she's posting this, I've never contested that cross atlantic contact is possible. I've just said there is no evidence of it, at least not during the Book of Mormon time frame. Of course there is plenty of evidence during the migration (going by memory, around 11000 BC).

I would never trust a thing Sorenson says without checking all his sources myself. He is far too untrustworthy with sources, as has been demonstrated numerous times. I have read this particular article before and checked into, If I recall correctly, the worms and the corn connection. Neither panned out as Sorenson claims. I'll try to find time to search my docs for what I wrote about it.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

Runtu wrote:I thought that was an excellent thread. And it was fascinating that the apologists did not grasp the rather simple premise of your argument. And when I pointed out that they weren't addressing your argument, I was told I was merely a cheerleader.


It was a very polarized thread, unfortunately. It might have helped if beastie had included some "outs" for the TBMs, like "this doesn't mean the Church is false, just that certain currently-popular interpretations of the Book of Mormon are not supported by (or are in conflict with) the evidence." You really have to say that over and over and over, or else well researched facts and a simple premise will be dismissed as anti-mormon bias.

(I said this "might" have helped because, in beastie's case, it appears that some influential MADites have a huge personal grudge against her.)
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Please, beastie, would you mind addressing the following post by HA on MAD the way you did the first one here? I want to compare your response to a response I made to a near identical post some time back. This is what was written:

I have alawas heard the accusation that nothing "nephite" has been found in the ruins. That begs the questian, what is a nephite? What traits or background would a person need in order to be called a nephite? What traits would someone have in order to disqualify him as such? Once you define what a nephite is, then you would ask, "what unique artifacts would these people leave behind, and how would we recognize it?"

1)anyone who is not a lamanite. Jacob 1:13
2)political affiliation, loyal to the Nephi dynasty,kinda like Saudi, as in ibn Saud. Jacob 1:14
3)believer in the religion taught by Nephi and his descendants, kinda like a Sunni vs Shia. 4 Nephi 1:37
4) a blood descendant of Nephi. 3 Nephi 5:10

Given these definitions FROM THE Book of Mormon itself, what traces should we expect to find in the ruins or DNA? How would we recognize them? With two of these definitions, even DCP would be considered a Nephite!





What sayest thou? What is a Nephite?


If you've already done so, I apologize for the duplication. I haven't read the entire thread here.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

It was a very polarized thread, unfortunately. It might have helped if beastie had included some "outs" for the TBMs, like "this doesn't mean the Church is false, just that certain currently-popular interpretations of the Book of Mormon are not supported by (or are in conflict with) the evidence." You really have to say that over and over and over, or else well researched facts and a simple premise will be dismissed as anti-mormon bias.


I've mentioned several times that accepting the Book of Mormon as pseudographia has potential for believers, but most of them are just too wedded to the historicity of the Book of Mormon to consider that an "out".

I do know that some ego-massaging and reassurances "might" help (others without the "Juliann" factor), but I just don't have the energy or desire to engage in it. I don't care enough about dialogging with believers anymore to be bothered. I've concluded that the many believers, particularly the most vocal ones, who post at MAD are the True Believers that Hoffer described, so interaction is pointless.

from Hoffer:

“So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard.” (Luther) To rely on the evidence of the senses and of reason is heresy and treason. It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible. What we know as blind faith is sustained by innumerable unbeliefs. The fanatical Japanese in Brazil refused to believe for four years the evidence of Japan’s defeat. The fanatical communist refuses to believe any unfavorable report or evidence about Russia, nor will he be disillusioned by seeing with his own eyes that the cruel misery inside the Soviet promise land.

It is the true believers ability to “shut his eyes and stop his ears” to facts that do not deserve to be either seen or heard which is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy. He cannot be frightened by danger nor disheartened by obstacles nor baffled by contradictions because he denies their existence. Strength of faith, as Bergson pointed out, manifests itself not in moving mountains but in not seeing mountains to move. And it is the certitude of his infallible doctrine that renders the true believer impervious to the uncertainties, surprises and the unpleasant realities of the world around him.

Thus the effectiveness of a doctrine should not be judged by its profundity, sublimity or the validity of the truths it embodies, but by how thoroughly it insulates the individual from his self and the world as it is. What Pascal said of an effective religion is true of any effective doctrine: it must be “contrary to nature, to common sense, and to pleasure”.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

The Dude wrote:
Runtu wrote:I thought that was an excellent thread. And it was fascinating that the apologists did not grasp the rather simple premise of your argument. And when I pointed out that they weren't addressing your argument, I was told I was merely a cheerleader.


It was a very polarized thread, unfortunately. It might have helped if beastie had included some "outs" for the TBMs, like "this doesn't mean the Church is false, just that certain currently-popular interpretations of the Book of Mormon are not supported by (or are in conflict with) the evidence." You really have to say that over and over and over, or else well researched facts and a simple premise will be dismissed as anti-mormon bias.

(I said this "might" have helped because, in beastie's case, it appears that some influential MADites have a huge personal grudge against her.)


Of course it's personal. She puts the spotlight on their favorite pet arguments and then turns up the heat until the poor argument is toasted. It's disheartening, as an active LDS, to see how foolish our best (I'm speaking of Brant here) look against Trixie's points, again and again. Why should she water down her argument, just so the MADmen and MADwomen's arguments aren't spotlighted as the foolishness they are?
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Jersey Girl,

That question is addressed in the thread I linked earlier about the Olmec. I call this particular strain of apologia the "what would a nephite pot look like?".

I only address arguments made under the LGT umbrella, in the specified area of Mesoamerica. So, given the basics of this argument, a Nephite would be anyone who professed allegiance to and had alliances with the polity that was directed by Nephi and his later direct descendants.

It defies human history to suggest that an immigrant group moved into a new location and became powerful, elite leaders of the most powerful polity in the area (Brant contests that the Nephites were leaders of the most powerful polity in the area, but given what we know about the sizes and social complexity of Mesoamerican polities in that time period, the polity described in the Book of Mormon definitely would have been incredibly powerful, the major force in the region) and yet no trace of their foreign culture exists. The Book of Mormon specifically states that Nephi taught his followers, and being a product of the Old World, he would have taught them Old World skills. There is no evidence of an Old World skill being transplanted to ancient Mesoamerica during the specified time frame.

Anyway, here are some posts I made from the Olmec thread.


I know that this is the new mantra: what would a nephite pot look like? It would actually look like a Judean 600 BC pot. Other archaeologists actually seem to think that you can locate artifacts that signal to us that newcomers moved into an area (and no, they don't have to take over the entire area to be noticeable). I previously cited what seems to be a very pertinent comment from William Dever in "Who Were the Early Israelites and Where did They Come From" page 121:

I would argue that such direct, long-term continuities between earlier Canannite pottery and later Iron I Israelite pottery, readily documented now, cannot be the result of coincidence. Nor can they be explained by continuing to regard the early Israelites as foreigners, newcomers to Canaan from Transjordan and ultimately from Egypt. To defend the latter view, one would have to argue that (1) these intruders brought with them no pottery traditions whatsoever, and (2) that upon arriving they immediately adopted the local pottery repertoire and replicated it exactly. That would be astounding, and also unprecedented in my experience.


I better put a fine point on it. The apologists who assert that one could not recognize a nephite pot are asserting just what Dever says is unprecedented - that a group of people migrated to a new area and immediately adopted the local pottery repertoire and replicated it exactly, bringing no pottery traditions with them whatsoever.

(after this post, the apologists' response was to focus on pots alone)

I responded:

Second, you assert that since the Lehites were rich they wouldn't make pottery. I responded by reminding you that the Dever book addressed far more than pottery, and your assertion that they wouldn't use any of their old ways is directly contradicted by the Book of Mormon itself. 2 Nephi 5:

13 And it came to pass that we began to prosper exceedingly, and to multiply in the land.
14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.
17 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cause my people to be industrious, and to labor with their hands.

And so the thread continued into near insanity.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 1404&st=80

So to answer your question, Jersey Girl, I am not interested in the DNA make-up of whoever a Nephite was, but I am interested in the fact that Nephi taught them skills that were very useful to them and created the most powerful polity in the area. To suggest that it is reasonable to believe that not ONE TRACE of those Old World skills should exist is illogical. Moreover, as I mentioned on the linked thread, in another essay, Brant also suggests that Nephi taught the natives some valuable new skill and that's why they wanted him as their leader, such as working with metals. But he seems to distance himself from that argument on the linked thread. Could it be because he knows there is zero evidence of Old World skills in mesoamerica?
Last edited by Tator on Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Thank you, beastie. Much appreciated.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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