Steel in America during the time of the Book of Mormon

[_Mr. Coffee]

Here's a Barney Style off-the-top-of-my-head refutation for this whole steel in Meso-American nonsense...

30,000,000 some odd guys armed with steel swords.

Assume average weight of each sword at 2Lbs (I'm going with something along the lines of a Roman Gladius, kind doubt they'd have used swords much larger then that).

30,000,000 x 2 = 60,000,000Lbs or 30,000 tons of steel.

Gramps, care to explain where an ammount of steel bigger than the St. Louis Gateway Arch disappeared too? Simple rust wouldn't get rid of it all. That much rusting steel would give off one hell of a nice magnetic blip on even a hand held metal detector, never mind the effects it would have on compasses, radios, electronics...

[_Bond...James Bond]

I don't understand your question. You seem to ask whether or not steel existed in ancient America during the Book of Mormon time period, but the "evidence" you cite is a scripture from the Old World.

I was using a scripture from the Old Testament to establish the fact that steel was in existence long before it was written about in the Book of Mormon. If they had steel in Israel in 1000 BC it just stands to reason that the method of making that steel would have been taken with those who came to America.

I'm not sure you have an understanding of what "grampa75 x 1" means.

If grampa75 posts many more of these type threads Fort's signature's going to read "grampa75 X screw it I can't count that high"

[_Mr. Coffee]

If grampa75 posts many more of these type threads Fort's signature's going to read "grampa75 X screw it I can't count that high"

More likely it'll start to read like "Grampa75 x 1.23e6". Past a point you have to change the expression used to describe the number.

[Guest]

Hello Grandpa75!

Please go to this website to boneup on metals in the Book of Mormon. Don't let our critic friends get you down. I have known them for quite some time, and I am still around, alive and kicking....with just a touch of dementia from reading their arguments over and over again. But the book still stands tall Grandpa...regardless of how many times it has been kicked around like a football. I see no bruises.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_metals.shtml

[_Runtu]

Hello Grandpa75!

Please go to this website to boneup on metals in the Book of Mormon. Don't let our critic friends get you down. I have known them for quite some time, I am still around, alive and kicking.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ_metals.shtml

Your link didn't work, but it's no matter. beastie is right on this one: there's no evidence of metallurgy, let alone steel, in Mesoamerica during the time frame the Nephites.

[_why me]

Hello Grandpa75!

Please go to this website to boneup on metals in the Book of Mormon. Don't let our critic friends get you down. I have known them for quite some time, I am still around, alive and kicking.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_metals.shtml

Your link didn't work, but it's no matter. beastie is right on this one: there's no evidence of metallurgy, let alone steel, in Mesoamerica during the time frame the Nephites.

I have a new and improved link. I left something out of the original post.

[_why me]

Hello Grandpa75!

Please go to this website to boneup on metals in the Book of Mormon. Don't let our critic friends get you down. I have known them for quite some time, I am still around, alive and kicking.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_metals.shtml

Your link didn't work, but it's no matter. beastie is right on this one: there's no evidence of metallurgy, let alone steel, in Mesoamerica during the time frame the Nephites.

It is now corrected.

[_Runtu]

Hello Grandpa75!

Please go to this website to boneup on metals in the Book of Mormon. Don't let our critic friends get you down. I have known them for quite some time, I am still around, alive and kicking.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_metals.shtml

Your link didn't work, but it's no matter. beastie is right on this one: there's no evidence of metallurgy, let alone steel, in Mesoamerica during the time frame the Nephites.

It is now corrected.

Yeah, I've read this before. The idea that "steel" is actually bronze is refuted in the text of the Book of Mormon. Despite Lindsay's and Sorenson's obfuscations, this is a simple and obvious anachronism in the Book of Mormon.

The problems are multiple:

1. Nephi describes a smelting process to make steel, which he says he taught to his people. Yet such smelting was unknown in Mesoamerica.
2. Nephi discusses the various types of metals that were smelted. Again, metalworking was known among the Mesoamericans, but not smelting or metallurgy.
3. Steel swords are described in the text of the Book of Mormon. The best the apologists can do is to suggest that these were macahuitls, which are obsidian-edged wooden clubs.

But thanks for the updated link.

[_Fortigurn]

Hello Grandpa75!

Please go to this website to boneup on metals in the Book of Mormon. Don't let our critic friends get you down. I have known them for quite some time, and I am still around, alive and kicking....with just a touch of dementia from reading their arguments over and over again. But the book still stands tall Grandpa...regardless of how many times it has been kicked around like a football. I see no bruises.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_metals.shtml

I'll save him some time and offer a response to the article:

* Carburized iron is not 'fine steel'

* Examples of carburized iron in the Ancient Near East were given, not in MesoAmerica during the era under discussion

* Three bronze arrowheads in 11th century Israel were offered as evidence, on the basis that they were 'inscribed with steel' (no evidence is provided that they were 'inscribed with steel', still less inscribed during the 11th century, and if the Israelites had steel in the 11th century they most certainly would have used it to make their arrowheads, not bronze, since it would have given them military superiority over the Philistines, who used iron)

* No evidence was provided for steel foundries and metallurgy in the Ancient Near East or MesoAmerican during any relevant era

* The article repeats the error of appealing to the 'bow of steel' in the inaccurate KJV translation of the Bible (already debunked in this thread, whyme please read the posts), though it does say 'perhaps the King James translators should have used the word "bronze" instead of "steel" in those places', which is certainly correct (really, this part of the article destroys its own argument)

* The article appeals to a couple of 'iron' and 'steel' passages in the KJV of Nehemiah, seemingly unaware that they suffer from the same faulty translation

* Appeal is made to a Mexican historian who apparently mentions 'steel helmets' used by the Tarascans, but since this was during the time of the Spanish conquests, it's hardly surprising (it's certainly not evidence for steel metallurgy during the era in question)

* Appeal is made to 'meteoric nickel-iron alloys', which are ambitiously called 'a type of steel', but not only is there no evidence that this is what is referred to in the Book of Mormon, there is no evidence for the smelting of 'meteoric nickel-iron alloys' in MesoAmerica during the era in question (apologists seem to overlook this point repeatedly, apparently unaware of the specific technological advances required to smelt anything like this kind of material, and the fact that it would leave obvious traces for thousands of years, as it has elsewhere)

* In the same vein are 'meteoric metals that the author compared to man-made steel listed', 'a face-centered cubic carbide related to tool steels and stainless steels', 'kamacite from Tucson, with similarities to hypo-eutectoid steels' (emphasis mine), but still no 'fine steel', and still no evidence that any of these materials were smelted during the era in question

* The same goes for the remainder of the paragraph, which offers 'some meteoric metals can be called steel with technical accuracy', and 'could certainly be called steel by ancient peoples or modern translators, who might easily call a broad range of iron alloys "steel"', which tacitly admits the absence of 'fine steel' in MesoAmerica during the relevant era, and ignores the fact that the translation of the Book of Mormon was allegedly inspired, so translation errors or ambiguities cannot be appealed to

whyme, you've just earned yourself a place in my signature.

[_Fortigurn]

The article also helpfully quotes a source which describes MesoAmerican swords as made of wood or flint, certainly not 'steel', still less 'fine steel':

Among the many eyewitness descriptions of Mesoamerican swords, I'll cite only a few from Roper's lengthy list, following Roper's use of added italics:

The Admiral thanked God for having shown him in a moment samples of all the goods of that country without exertion or exposing his men to any danger. He ordered such things to be taken as he judged most handsome and valuable, such as . . . long wooden swords with a groove on each side where the edge should be, in which the cutting edges of flint were fixed with thread and bitumen (these swords cut naked men as if they were of steel).
[Samuel E. Morison, Journals and Other Documents on the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (New York: Heritage Press, 1963), p. 327.]

Many bands of Indians came along the coast from the town of Champoton, as it is called, wearing cotton armour to the knees, and carrying bows and arrows, lances and shields, swords which appeared to be two-handed, slings and stones. . . .

Then they attacked us hand to hand, some with lances and some shooting arrows, and others with their two-handed cutting swords. . . .
They were carrying their usual weapons: bows, arrows, lances of various sizes, some of which were as large as ours; shields, swords single and double handed, and slings and stones. . . .
They carried two-handed swords, shields, lances, and feather plumes. Their swords, which were as long as broadswords, were made of flint which cut worse than a knife, and the blades were so set than one could neither break them nor pull them out.

Montezuma had two houses stocked with every sort of weapon; many of them were richly adorned with gold and precious stones. There were shields large and small, and a sort of broadsword, and two-handed swords set with flint blades that cut much better than our swords.
[Bernal Diaz, The Conquest of New Spain, trans. J. M. Cohen (New York: Penguin Books, 1963), pp. 22,23,29,142-143,228.]