There is much the LDS have to offer the world in knowledge

[_grampa75]

Hi Grandap 75...

I like you too! :-)

In terms of your belief that this is a great plan? Well... I disagree.

In fact that plan to me seems about as good as an ancient tribal nomad and a few guys who want power could come up with.

Certainly a God who could create this universe could come up with something a little less cruel and horrific?

I'm just a regular mom with no special anything but I'm telling you, I would never come up with a plan where 1/3 of my children are cast into outer darkness, and where everyone else except a handful of people will return to me.

I would never come up with a plan or allow a plan where the horrors of life exists as they do for the vast majority of humans throughout the history of our world.

I would never come up with a plan where my children's (those who didn't get cast off into outer darkness), choices during this little tiny blink of an experience determine where they will go for eternity.

I would never ever come up with a plan where families and loved ones are separated unless they believe a story that is nearly impossible for most of humankind to believe, and participate in various rituals, ceremonies, and ordinances that feel odd to most people.

I would never come up with a plan where ones eternal wellbeing and relationship are based on knowing passwords and handshakes.

I would never come up with a plan that is tricky and confusing and requires horrific acts to prove obedience.

I would never come up with a plan that, to embrace it one must disregard all sense of reality, science, and real world experience to believe.

I would never come up with a plan where I have a few special, chosen, elite spirits who I want to return to me and the rest... well... whatever.

I would never come up with a plan where women are degraded and demeaned and considered nothing but servants or possessions to men.

AND... I would never come up with a heaven where women get to be a polygamous wife procreating children for all of eternity.

If I were the Goddess of the universe, (and we really lived in a world such as you believe), I'm pretty sure I could come up with a plan that brings all of my children back. A plan where my children have as long as it takes to learn all the lessons there are. A plan where women feel honored and respected and valued as human beings. A plan that is pure, simple, and clear enough for everyone to understand and embrace. A plan where the nonsense of judgments, heirarchy, power, authority, special and elect sprits is absent.

In fact I could do it in about five minutes! ;-)

But... I'm glad you find such peace in your beliefs. Do you understand why others may not?

~dancer~

perhaps you and most of the entirity of our earth's population feel that God is one mean &*^(*&(*)U(*(*^*&^%&^%&&^ if you can read that. Ha Ha
We are all punished for sin to teach us hard headed humans to obey the laws of God and the land.
I know one truth for sure. The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants teach us that God punishment does not last forever. I personally like the teaching from the D & C 19: 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be NO end to this torment, but it is written Endless Torment.
7. Again, it is written Eternal Damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory.
8. Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
10. For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great it it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment given from my hand is endless punishment for Endless is my name. Wherefore
11. Eternal punishment is God's punishment.
12. Endless punishment is God's punishment.
The punishment that God will enact upon every living soul will either be called Endless and Eternal punishment simply because it is God's punishment and the punishment is named after him.
I have already posted the verses out of Ephesians 11, 12, 13 Which gives us to understand that every single person who has ever lived or who will live will eventually become as perfect a person as Jesus Christ is. If we aspire to that perfection then I would say that every single person will be worthy of the Celestial Kingdom at some time in the eternities to come. I really don't know how God will do this. Perhaps re-existence is true or reincarnation, I really can't say. But if reincarnation or re-existence is not true, then God has a much better plan.
I have suffered a great deal in my life. One morning I was praying and asking God to relieve me of some of my pain and suffering. But then the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart saying, "No one can really know the Savior without suffering." My heart was so touched that morning I will never get over it.
I know if you search the scriptures and look for questions or things you don't understand, that if you pray about those things the Lord will give you or grant you that understanding.
Don't look upon God as a merciless vengeful ruler, HE is a kind loving Father.
Knowing that there are other worlds just like ours and the people on those other worlds are going through pretty much the same things that we are going through helps us to understand a little more.
I was going to write more but was told to stop. I don't know why but I would ask you to just realize that we will ALL be in the Highest Kingdom of God someday. I really don't know if we will be prepared in the spirit world or if God has some higher plan for us, but it is just written that not one single person will fail.

[_wenglund]

I just love grampa75. He is going to be a tremendous asset to this board. I nominate grandpa75 to be the moderator of the Telestial threads. He would get those lazy buggers back on track. Do you hear me Shades!!

Stick around grandpa75. I like ya.

I like him, too. It's kind of refreshing to see someone who believes in the absolute goodness and rightness of Mormonism. I hope he stays a good long time.

I agree with these sentiments, and I hope that gramps75's fine example will cause these kinds of positive expressions of belief and faith (whatever one's world view) to one day predominate here.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So what do you say when someone's positive expression of belief and faith says that Mormonism is wrong?

Does't that kind of put you in a quandry?

Positive expressions of faith unavoidably imply that differing faiths are wrong. I have no problem with such implications, and see no reasons to say anything about them (except indirectly by way of implication through the positive expression of my own faith), and thus there is no quandry.

Explicit statements against another faith are not postive, but negative expressions. So, no quandry there as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mister Scratch]

Positive expressions of faith unavoidably imply that differing faiths are wrong. I have no problem with such implications, and see no reasons to say anything about them (except indirectly by way of implication through the positive expression of my own faith), and thus there is no quandry.

Explicit statements against another faith are not postive, but negative expressions. So, no quandry there as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Actually, there is a quandry. Suppose I say, "I have found so much peace in my life ever since I became a critic of the LDS Church. Everyday that I notice some way in which the Church has lied, I fill my heart brimming with joy, and find that I treat people with more kindness and respect than I ever have before. I have more confidence, and generally more love for my fellow human beings. Truly, ever since I began to see the various ways in which the Church has screwed up, I have found that I am a much more spiritual person."

Are you willing to allow for this? I.e., is this somehow "not positive"?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Grandpa.... :-)

perhaps you and most of the entirity of our earth's population feel that God is one mean &*^(*&(*)U(*(*^*&^%&^%&&^ if you can read that. Ha Ha

No... actually I do not believe this at all.

I do think the God as described by many belief systems is not the sort of being I would enjoy living with for eternity, let alone worshipping. :-)

My awareness of God does not mesh with the idea taught by the religions in which I have studied.

As always, I appreciate your thoughts and comments!

:-)

~dancer~

[_grampa75]

Hi Grandpa...

God is a God of love for sure,

It is nice to say and believe but I sure don't see it. Not in scripture, not in real life.

:-(

~dancer~

Dancer,

I believe you could see it if you were to invite an LDS individual, (I'm not saying you should just run out and find the missionaries) but someone whom you know talks about how the Holy Spirit has influenced his life. When he speaks to you and opens any discussion on any scripture first with a word of prayer inviting the Holy Spirit to testify to you, then as you discuss any particular scripture the Holy Spirit will make it known to you, in 2 or more ways that the interpretation of any scripture you are discussing is true. That is IF it is true. In that way a person can't be deceived if one of the witnesses you have is the Holy Spirit. Let me post one scripture that I have posted before to allow you to see the love of God and how HE deals with HIS children.

1 John 2: 27 The anointing which you have received of him abideth in you, and ye need NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU, but the same anointing teacheth you of all things and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him..
grampa75

[_truth dancer]

Hi Grampa...

There are writings from all sorts of sources that ring true to me, that feel right, that make sense and resonate as true... (I used to say the HG testified of their truthfulness). ;-)

For example... the beatitudes, many teachings of the Dahli Lama, certain work by spiritual masters, enlightened thinkers, and scientists throughout the ages.

I do not doubt there are women and men who have glimpsed/understood deep truths.

I've been witness to great LDS speakers who have shared their truth... and I have been witness to other spiritual masters or great thinkers who have shared their truth. Some things resonate as true, others do not.

I've found it best to go with what seems right, makes sense, to me, rather than try to make myself believe what others claim to be ultimate truth, when this feels unholy or incorrect to me.

:-)

~dancer~

[_moksha]

I think senior citizens are really neat and their accumulated life wisdom can be so helpful in any discussion. One item I am a bit cautious about is the raucousness which some of the posters conduct themselves. I would hope that Gramps can take the wildness of youth into consideration on these threads, and not let it bother him.

[_grampa75]

Hi Grandap 75...

I like you too! :-)

In terms of your belief that this is a great plan? Well... I disagree.

In fact that plan to me seems about as good as an ancient tribal nomad and a few guys who want power could come up with.

Certainly a God who could create this universe could come up with something a little less cruel and horrific?

I'm just a regular mom with no special anything but I'm telling you, I would never come up with a plan where 1/3 of my children are cast into outer darkness, and where everyone else except a handful of people will return to me.

I would never come up with a plan or allow a plan where the horrors of life exists as they do for the vast majority of humans throughout the history of our world.

I would never come up with a plan where my children's (those who didn't get cast off into outer darkness), choices during this little tiny blink of an experience determine where they will go for eternity.

I would never ever come up with a plan where families and loved ones are separated unless they believe a story that is nearly impossible for most of humankind to believe, and participate in various rituals, ceremonies, and ordinances that feel odd to most people.

I would never come up with a plan where ones eternal wellbeing and relationship are based on knowing passwords and handshakes.

I would never come up with a plan that is tricky and confusing and requires horrific acts to prove obedience.

I would never come up with a plan that, to embrace it one must disregard all sense of reality, science, and real world experience to believe.

I would never come up with a plan where I have a few special, chosen, elite spirits who I want to return to me and the rest... well... whatever.

I would never come up with a plan where women are degraded and demeaned and considered nothing but servants or possessions to men.

AND... I would never come up with a heaven where women get to be a polygamous wife procreating children for all of eternity.

If I were the Goddess of the universe, (and we really lived in a world such as you believe), I'm pretty sure I could come up with a plan that brings all of my children back. A plan where my children have as long as it takes to learn all the lessons there are. A plan where women feel honored and respected and valued as human beings. A plan that is pure, simple, and clear enough for everyone to understand and embrace. A plan where the nonsense of judgments, heirarchy, power, authority, special and elect sprits is absent.

In fact I could do it in about five minutes! ;-)

But... I'm glad you find such peace in your beliefs. Do you understand why others may not?

~dancer~

This provides an interesting contrast to the OP, not so much in terms of tone (both were stated nicely), but rather by way of bearing out what I meant by "positive". With dancer's post she mostly talked about what she thought was WRONG about Gramps75 belief, while Gramps75's post mostly talked about what he believes is RIGHT and VALUED about his own faith. Dancer's post, whether intended or not, was closed-minded and disrespectful of differing beliefs, where as Gramps75 was open-minded and respectful of his own belief. Dancer's post was geared towards tearing down, whereas Gramps75 was geared to uplift and enlighted. Etc., etc.

I think the more we each are able to respect and appreciate beliefs with which we may differ, focusing less on what we think is WRONG with other beliefs and more on what we think is RIGHT or VALUED about our own beliefs, the more mutualy efficacious our interfaith discussions will be.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

dancer

Can you believe that man could create a more loving and wise plan than our God. I would say dancer, and I hope this does not offend, but if you believe that man can create a better plan than God has created, (I mean by that; more loving more patience and long suffering on God's part, then you either don't attend Church or you attended the wrong church. Dancer, in God's Eternal Plan, there is not one person who will be left out. Of course God wants to cause us to wonder I suppose because HE knows that if we are sinners we will end up with a terrible feeling of remorse or guilt when we draw close to the end of our lives. In fact some people end up committing suicide because of the failure they have made of their lives.

For example lets say in your younger years you have an affair with someone, then you end up not marrying that individual. When you do marry and find your soul mate and want to spend the rest of your life with that person; how would you feel then about the mistake you made years later? I know how I feel and I am as old as dirt.

I regret a great many things I have done in my life to hurt others feelings or harm my own self in some way or another.

LDS believe in an endless number of worlds and God's work will never end because God is trying to supply a body of flesh and bone for all the spirit entities known as Intelligence, and there is no end to intelligence and no space in which there is no Intelligence. After the first earth every single person was racked with mental torment and grief and heartache over the way they had lived their lives. So God called a council in heaven and at that time created a plan for man so he would eventually learn that there is no happiness in unrighteousness.

The plan that was created was done so in such a manner to demonstrate to the entire world that the reward for sin is remorse and guilt. In God's plan the angels were cast out of heaven because of rebellion, or sin. The earth was later totally flooded and killed everyone who was not on the ark, because of sin. When Moses led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, he killed nearly a million of them, once again because of their sins. The earth is destined to be destroyed by fire two times for the same reason.

The question is dancer; What are we to learn from the death and suffering of all these people? It is just God's way of demonstrating to us, his children, that for every sin there is a punishment affixed to that sin. Man cannot escape the justice or the mercy of God.

Death is really nothing to worry about, we will never die in one way. We were all Intelligence in the very beginning and we will always remain with the spirit of that intelligence teaching us and guiding us. In the end, I call it an end for those who have finally reached their final destination which is the Celestial Kingdom of heaven. But when we do arrive at our final destination we will have become to be as perfect as the Savior Jesus Christ. (Eph 4: 11-13)

grampa75

[_truth dancer]

Hi Grampa...

Can you believe that man could create a more loving and wise plan than our God.

If you are talking about the God of the Bible... yes. I believe modern day humans (as opposed to men) could come up with something better. The God of the Old Testament sounds conspicuously like a nomadic herder from a few millennia ago who wants control and power.

I would say dancer, and I hope this does not offend, but if you believe that man can create a better plan than God has created, (I mean by that; more loving more patience and long suffering on God's part, then you either don't attend Church or you attended the wrong church.

I attend the LDS church but do not believe in its truth claims.

Dancer, in God's Eternal Plan, there is not one person who will be left out. Of course God wants to cause us to wonder I suppose because HE knows that if we are sinners we will end up with a terrible feeling of remorse or guilt when we draw close to the end of our lives. In fact some people end up committing suicide because of the failure they have made of their lives.

I'm certainly not perfect but I do not have such fear or worry.

For example lets say in your younger years you have an affair with someone, then you end up not marrying that individual. When you do marry and find your soul mate and want to spend the rest of your life with that person; how would you feel then about the mistake you made years later? I know how I feel and I am as old as dirt.

I do not embrace your ideas on this. I would certainly not feel guilty about mistakes I had made 80 years earlier... Nor do I judge others who make mistakes along the way. This world is not an easy one to manage and I think we all do the best we can. I don't think the idea of perfection makes any sense at all.... what I do believe is that we can do our best to live a holy life.

I regret a great many things I have done in my life to hurt others feelings or harm my own self in some way or another.

I think the healthy way to manage our mistakes and past hurtful behavior is to apologize, do what we can to make amends, learn from our mistakes and then let them go. Holding onto our mistakes for years and years is damaging to one's soul and health.

LDS believe in an endless number of worlds and God's work will never end because God is trying to supply a body of flesh and bone for all the spirit entities known as Intelligence, and there is no end to intelligence and no space in which there is no Intelligence. After the first earth every single person was racked with mental torment and grief and heartache over the way they had lived their lives. So God called a council in heaven and at that time created a plan for man so he would eventually learn that there is no happiness in unrighteousness.

With all due respect (and I truly mean this), this story is as good as any other humans have come up with over the years. Anyone can make up any story and claim it is true when it is regarding something for which we have no proof or evidence whatsoever.

My personal belief is much different that yours.

The plan that was created was done so in such a manner to demonstrate to the entire world that the reward for sin is remorse and guilt. In God's plan the angels were cast out of heaven because of rebellion, or sin. The earth was later totally flooded and killed everyone who was not on the ark, because of sin. When Moses led the Children of Israel out of Egypt, he killed nearly a million of them, once again because of their sins. The earth is destined to be destroyed by fire two times for the same reason.

I do not embrace your belief and find this story rather unbelieveable. I think these sorts of myths are the creation of a few men who claimed to know truth... like all the other stories that claim to be true.

The question is dancer; What are we to learn from the death and suffering of all these people? It is just God's way of demonstrating to us, his children, that for every sin there is a punishment affixed to that sin. Man cannot escape the justice or the mercy of God.

Yeah.... I'm sorry but this is where I find God REALLY cruel (if this is really God which I do not believe). Like all the children who starve to death have done some sin. Ya know? :-(

Death is really nothing to worry about, we will never die in one way. We were all Intelligence in the very beginning and we will always remain with the spirit of that intelligence teaching us and guiding us. In the end, I call it an end for those who have finally reached their final destination which is the Celestial Kingdom of heaven. But when we do arrive at our final destination we will have become to be as perfect as the Savior Jesus Christ. (Eph 4: 11-13)

Actually I do not worry about death at all. Funny, I really did as a believing member because I felt the plan was so horrible and the CKHL just seemed so ugly.

I'm truly glad your beliefs work for you. You obviously find peace and strength in them. I think it is great for you!

They, however, do not make sense to me nor do they feel holy or true.

I wish you the best,

~dancer~

Also... glad you did not feel disrespected or offended by my previous post. :-)

[_truth dancer]

Ohhh one more thing I forgot grampa... :-)

I was going to write more but was told to stop. I don't know why but I would ask you to just realize that we will ALL be in the Highest Kingdom of God someday.

I truly hope not. I have no desire to be a queen, priestess, Goddess, procreate for eternity, or be a polygmous wife! ;-)

If God is as is suggested by scripture, I truly have no desire to be with him.

Just how I see it...

Please note that I do not believe God is as scripture describes God... :-)

~dancer~