Thanks, Alter Idem. I appreciate your comments. One slight correction, though. I was not the thread originator of the "suicide" thread. I did post the mom's RfM post and tried to sort out some of the apparent misunderstandings about the situation (as I understand them myself, my only knowledge being from what I read on the RfM thread).
When I did start a thread (this one) to ask about the other thread being moved to a "lower" forum, that was my main purpose - just to get information about how the board works and also what it was about that thread that needed to be moved (I hadn't followed the graphic descriptions or tied them into temple activities or seen/noted any profanity at that point). I was surprised because I didn't know that a thread would be moved like that and I can see problems with that, given the mixed group of participants here. I wasn't thinking about myself so much re which forum a thread or post gets into but more about LDS posters, and others, who would choose not to read or post in Telestial but could find their thread or post over there without warning. If that would startle me, when it's not a matter of my religious faith which forum I'm in (generally speaking) I can see how undesirable it could be to some/all people who are in that group. If you want to attract posters across such a diverse spectrum and you set up the board so that there are rooms for various tastes, it seems that it is very important to preserve the separations between the rooms and the choice posters make about where they wish to participate.
I saw Dr. Shades' comment that the three levels aren't meant to be higher or lower than each other but the fact is, they are visualized that way, both in the theology from which they are drawn and by their nature here on this board, depending on your point of view. If as an LDS participant (or one any faith) you wish to read and post here, only in certain rooms, but depending on replies to your thread or on any thread in which you are posting, your post can move "up" or "down" without warning between the different levels that seems to me to be significant and possibly a reason why some people would decide they couldn't participate here after all.
As Dr. Shades has asked for input, I'll say that I think the best practice would be to consider the original poster and their post, if it meets the guidelines for the chosen forum, as the immovable unit and all the replies have to be subject to the rules in the forum in which the OP chose to post their thread. Rather than moving the entire thread if some unacceptable replies are received (thereby signifying that the OP has no control over their own thread's placement) wouldn't it be better to preserve an opening post and all acceptable replies and get rid of any offending ones? (Offending meaning not suitable for that forum or not suitable for the board - if there is such a beast!)
I realize there are board moderation issues there, if it becomes a lot of work to edit replies that don't follow forum guidelines. Maybe that highlights how tough it is, really, to have "no moderation" or total "free speech" but it would seem a necessary burden if it's accepted that a thread originator should be allowed to remain in the forum they chose, not subject to whatever replies may invade their thread.
I agree with the poster who said that moving threads opens the way to manipulation too. What a fun little game (to some) to try and get threads moved (maybe especially threads originated by TBMs who choose not to post in Telestial).
Maybe the only solution is that if a reply violates guidelines it has to get zapped, preserving the thread and its acceptable replies in the original forum. That is more work for mods but preserves the users' choice about where to place their thread. I guess you have to find a balance between conflicting priorities on that?
Dr. Shades wrote:Alter Idem wrote:If Nightingale wanted a respectful dialogue on this topic, it would have been nice to give her the option of allowing the mods to remove explicit temple content and profanity so that the thread could stay in Terrestrial or Celestial.
Ack, I messed up the quote but Dr. S basically said if I have a problem PM him. I didn't specifically question Admin as I didn't have a personal issue about that specific thread being moved. But the idea of it, in general, I'm not in favour of, as explained above.
Maybe there could be an understanding, or a guideline, that if a thread topic is clearly labelled "Temple Content", LDS participants could choose not to open it, of course, and then the discussion just develops as it will. And if someone originates one in Telestial, well then it's every person for themselves! I don't think you could expect to have a temple content thread in any forum except Celestial that would NOT be potentially offensive to LDS readers/posters. With that as a given, it shouldn't be necessary to edit a thread that contains "temple content" to try and make it acceptable to TBMs when that is likely a fruitless endeavour.
Shades: "If lots of people are participating in a thread in their own, uh, unique way, does it become censorship if I start deleting and splitting posts off merely because the originating poster wants things to be just so? How much ownership does any thread originator really have, if the idea behind this message board is that everyone has a voice and all are both welcome and equal?"
It's very difficult to find that balance, as you say. That's where the primary ideals must be clearly outlined and against those these questions are measured and the answer is easier to see. For instance, is "no censorship" the primary ideal or is it "not too much work for the mods" or "thread originators get to choose their own forum" or ??? Whichever ideal is higher in priority offers the answer as each issue arises.
I, for one, do not think that a thread originator "owns" anything other than their own originating post and the choice of venue for it. In the interest of free discussion (my preference) anything goes after that in terms of which piece of the OP someone wishes to answer (but still must stay within forum guidelines for content and style). In other words, at FAIR (not sure about MADB) there was a lot of emphasis on what constituted a "tangent" from the OP. Also, the OP seemed to be given special "control" over how they wanted their thread to go. That approach stifled discussion, in my opinion. Some topics create natural tangents and those can be fascinating and related to the OP. Trying to micromanage that kind of thing must be very difficult on mods as well as thread participants.
To achieve the ideal stated by Shades (all are welcome and equal) it would seem you must preserve the definition of each forum, within IT, and not by having to move threads out of one and into another (unless the OP chose the wrong forum to start with in which case it's an understandable - and maybe helpful - move). The "everyone welcome" part is achieved by there being clearly defined separate areas. The "everyone equal" part is that people choose where to start threads and where to post replies and all are expected to respect the guidelines for each area. If they do not, that damages the board for every participant and their posts being zapped or moved is NOT censorship, injustice or inequality, it's just mods helping the board run smoothly.
The more clearly you state your ideals (board purpose and approach) and the more objective you make the modding decisions (not 100% possible) the less you have to agonize over subjectivity and "censorship". So instead of the ideal of having a completely mod-free, free-speech board (not usually possible!) the ideal is that within these simple parameters you want to make everyone feel welcome and equal. The mods are tasked with protecting that and the posters, in that sense, actually come second to the smooth running of the board for the benefit of the majority. Managing that while catering to a diverse group is quite an achievement.
Shades: "I really and truly wish to allow everyone a free voice, but at the same time I want to give participants what they ask for, which in our case has been the ability to choose their own comfort level."
Exactly. But a big part of that "comfort level" is choosing which forum they want, right? So if you move someone from Celestial or Terrestrial (two areas where LDS/others may feel comfortable enough) to the Telestial (where they may choose never to read or post) you are not allowing them to choose their own level, literally.
Shades: "Sure, there have been a few thread moves here and there, but I don't think it's become epidemic yet".
But it could be, if someone decides to try manipulating things.
Shades: "I hope everyone agrees that I'm far,
far better than the MA&D moderators."
Given how a majority here feels about the MAD mods, are you sure that's the yardstick you want to use in determining your own level of mod madness? [smiley]