What if you ask and the anwer is.....

[_Trinity]

I know of no such situational vacuum where this would occur. As Analytics elaborated quite nicely, there is always a lead-in as to what an answer would be, how it would be identified, etc.

Pure bluster Trinity. This kind of amateur psychologizing in an attempt to explain away uncomfortable possibilities looks like little more than positivist straw grasping in the face of something they have neither the intellectual tools to comprehend nor the experiential background upon which to base any analysis.

Sadly enough, I understand your sentence. Where's the tag for Yikes!

Let's stack your sentence up next to Moroni 10: 3-5:

No one knows beforehand what the answer will be or if they will receive one.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

That, Mr. Coggins, is called lead-in.

[_Coggins7]

sadly enough Trinity, you do not.

[_Mister Scratch]

It's not a far leap from that to the notion that a member's thinking (and apparent revealing) has already been done for them. All they must do is follow the church. Why bother asking God if "God" will never contradict the church?

Good grief this is pure sophistry. The Church teaches its members to ask God for themselves for confirmation of what has been taught, the same thing that investigators are told to do. No one knows beforehand what the answer will be or if they will receive one. The purpose revelation is to clear up doubt and instill a sure knowledge of things that otherwise could not be known. The why on earth would someone ask God to reveal something to them which they are already fully convinced is correct? I certainly never would.

Why... is that "Dueling Banjos" I hear playing? Why, yes! I do believe it is! Good to see you back in the saddle, Loran.

As for your statement, it can only hold true if one takes into account the sophistry which is an inborn part of the Church itself. The revelation/confirmation formula taught to investigators is salted somewhat by the doctrine of "milk before meat." I think it goes without saying that many, many converts never would have joined in the first place if they'd known about the Mark of Cain, or polygamy, or polyandry, or Blood Atonement, or Kolob, etc., etc., etc.

Now I will sit back in my chair and wait for your predictable, "Nothing to see here."

[_Gazelam]

I personally have faith that Jesus is the Christ but it is faith. I do not have perfect knowledge of this. Nor do you. Nor do any LDS though they think they do.

An unmistakeable witness from the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ is a sure knowledge. That is why i can say that I know that jesus is the Christ the same way I know that I am sitting at this computer.

But why is it ALL true even if God called him? David fell. Joseph could have too. Any thing after the first vision, if it indeed happened could all be a lie for all we know.

Well go back and look at things from that time forward, I asked Harmony to do the same thing. Look at the Doctrines taught from 1831 onward. All of the things dealing with Priesthood, the Temple, Laws of Consecration. Look at the King Follet Discource. D&C 76, 84, 88, 93, 132. Look at the Doctrines taught in the Book of Moses and The Book of Abraham. Then ask yourself the question "Did Joseph lose his mantle of a Prophet?"

I appreciate your remarks but is this just not another way of saying "put it on the shelf and don't worry yourself over it." Then go back, get the right answer, because any other answer is wrong.

I'm not saying this at all. I am saying that you can't spend all your time in the trenchs. Make a list line by line of the specific problems and tackle them one by one, but don't forget to take a break and rebuild (reload) the spirit with something faith promoting between the study sessions. There is nothing wrong with delveing into the heavier things, just don't forget to shore up your foundation along the way. I would also recommend that you keep a notebook. Make the first page your list and tackle each problem one by one and keep a record.


And as long as you are delving into the things of God, do it with his counsel in prayer. Watch for the Holy Ghost and if you are asking questions ask them in a yes or no fashion so that the answers will be easy to determine.

Gaz

[_Trinity]

sadly enough Trinity, you do not.

This is it? Coggins, when you can explain to me a fully tested and proven system of revelation epistemology you will have earned the right to look down on me. Until then, I'll assume you are just pissing into the subjective winds of faith like the rest of us.

[_Mister Scratch]

sadly enough Trinity, you do not.

This is it? Coggins, when you can explain to me a fully tested and proven system of revelation epistemology you will have earned the right to look down on me. Until then, I'll assume you are just pissing into the subjective winds of faith like the rest of us.

He has said elsewhere that faith gets a free pass when it comes to logical thinking, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

[_Seven]

Hi, Jason.

This is my first post on this board. I've lurked a bit, but your post is what finally prompted my registration.

I'm an ex-Mormon and I also post on RfM as Kimberly Ann, which is my name in real life. I resigned from Mormonism almost four years ago, after thirty-one years in the church.

Your post is a painful reminder of what I went through during the last several months before my decision that I could no longer in good conscience remain a Mormon. Polygamy, in it's historical context always weighed heavily on my heart, as well as the future prospect of an eternity in heaven which seemed no better than a swanky Colorado City. It never felt right, but I always believed the reason it never felt right was because of my weakness, lack of faith, or selfishness - the bad feelings were all my fault. It couldn't be because the church was wrong - that Joseph Smith lied - I just couldn't even go there in my mind. So, after being told (by an active member) about Joseph Smith's marriages to already married women and his affair with Fanny Alger and his sealing to fourteen year old Helen Mar, my testimony was weakened to almost nothing and I was more miserable than I'd ever been in my life. I hit my knees and prayed for answers. Many times a day I prayed and cried, pleading with God to tell me Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the church I'd dedicated my life to was indeed true like my entire family believed it to be. There was never a time I seeked answers to my questions with more earnestness than when I was trying to salvage my testimony. But God didn't tell me Joseph Smith was a prophet. Consolation never came. In fact, I believed God answered my questions firmly in the negative. Joseph Smith was not a prophet. He was a womanizer and he lied about polygamy. I don't know if it really was God answering my questions, or if my own conscience was screaming out to be heard and believed, but I knew, deep down, that the church wasn't true.

I went to my Bishop and he told me my answer was from the Devil and that I was a prideful, selfish woman who didn't want other women to make it to the Celestial Kingdom. He asked for my temple recommend, which I refused to give him. I just didn't want to obey that mean old man - I didn't want to go to the temple anymore. So, I had to go home and tell my husband, the First Counselor in the Elder's Quorum and Assistant Ward Clerk that I didn't believe the church was true and I'd never again step foot in a Mormon church, even if it meant he would leave me. I'm a little bit stubborn.

I'm telling this story, Jason, so that you'll know you're not the only person who's ever asked questions and gotten answers opposite of what the church says you should get. Who are they to tell you how God should answer your prayers? Is the prophet placing himself above God by dictating how God must answer our prayers? How presumptious must someone be to tell you the answers to your prayers aren't from God just because the answers don't suit them or their religious beliefs?

I left the church and eventually my husband left, too. Later, my mother and all my siblings turned in their resignation letters. My life is so different now. The weight of all the worries over polygamy and other doctrinal nightmares is gone and although leaving wasn't easy, I would never want to go back.

The bottom line is that Jospeh Smith's story is unbelievable because it's a lie and shouldn't be believed. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I can empathize with you, Jason, and I know questioning your faith is hard. I've been where you are and I wish you the best.

KA

Wow, your story is very similar to mine. I believe polygamy is a testimony breaker for many, or at minimum an issue that leads them to other troubling aspects of Mormon history. Which is why the church has tried so hard to white wash it all and never mention the P word in a church setting. Look how many good men and women left the church over polygamy when they had the most incredible spiritual experiences and tesimonies! It's the one part of Mormonism that completely goes against every moral commandment taught to LDS.

I don't have much advice for Jason since I am stuck in the same delimma myself. I haven't found a way out either way so right now I am inactive but still hoping to make it work like Harmony and Liz do.

[_Mephitus]

This issue of "work harder untill you get the right (my) answer" was the precise one that disolussioned me on the church.

Several years ago i had been doing a bit of personal study on self hypnotism. Learning the workings of the mind and how resoning and emotional effects are triggered. About 3/4 of my way through reading all this, i realised the sef perpetuating emotional triggers that the church had instilled into me from my earliest memories. And only after carefully putting these aside and giving an honest open minded question on the truthfulness of Mormonism did i receive what could be described as a profound "NO!". All the information, science, history, etc that i found afterwards only confirmed what i had realised. The church is merely attempting to gain as much controll and money from its members as possible. It has less to stand on as a religion to me than nearly all other religions. (and im including those fluffy wiccans)

[_Runtu]

This issue of "work harder untill you get the right (my) answer" was the precise one that disolussioned me on the church.

Several years ago I had been doing a bit of personal study on self hypnotism. Learning the workings of the mind and how resoning and emotional effects are triggered. About 3/4 of my way through reading all this, I realised the sef perpetuating emotional triggers that the church had instilled into me from my earliest memories. And only after carefully putting these aside and giving an honest open minded question on the truthfulness of Mormonism did I receive what could be described as a profound "NO!". All the information, science, history, etc that I found afterwards only confirmed what I had realised. The church is merely attempting to gain as much controll and money from its members as possible. It has less to stand on as a religion to me than nearly all other religions. (and I'm including those fluffy wiccans)

In the end, the church is about two things: growth and income. I know that sounds cynical (and it is), but that's probably the most devastating realization when you leave the church. It's a corporation wrapped in the trappings of faith.

[_Mephitus]

Actualy, i don't think your being cynical. Your being a realist. It is what it is, nothing more, nothing less.