What if you ask and the anwer is.....

[_KimberlyAnn]

[
Polygamy, in it's historical context always weighed heavily on my heart, as well as the future prospect of an eternity in heaven which seemed no better than a swanky Colorado City.


You've got to be kidding.

I assure you, Coggins7, I am most definitely not kidding. The fact is, we all know Mormon men are expceted to be polygamists in the Celestial Kingdom. Some men may not want that, and it may be possible in Mormon theology that they can avoid it somehow, though I can't imagine they wouldn't be looked down upon for shirking their duty, but most women dread eternal Polygamy, and they do not have a choice in the matter. Women have no choice in the hereafter whether their husband marries other women or not. If a woman dies, her husband can, without her permission, be sealed to a second wife. Tell me, how does the dead wife stop it? Women have no choice.

The Mormon church is a sexist, misogynistic organization. Trinity is spot on and you are disingenuous in claiming otherwise.

I wrote an essay on that a week or so ago. Perhaps I will post it for your enlightenment.

And for Runtu - you know how I feel about attending the Mormon church as a non-believer. It's not something to be admired, in my opinion.

KA

[_Mephitus]

yup, in fact if a couple divorces, the man has full right to be sealed to any new wife he gets. While the woman must ask permission from the ex-husband to be sealed to any new husband. The church can deny your sealing if the 1st husband says no.

[_Runtu]

And for Runtu - you know how I feel about attending the Mormon church as a non-believer. It's not something to be admired, in my opinion.

KA

Let me clarify. I don't think anyone here is attending as a nonbeliever. Some people have been able to maintain belief while jettisoning the bad aspects of the church. I think that's admirable. I couldn't do it, but some people can.

[_Jason Bourne]

It's not a far leap from that to the notion that a member's thinking (and apparent revealing) has already been done for them. All they must do is follow the church. Why bother asking God if "God" will never contradict the church?

Good grief this is pure sophistry. The Church teaches its members to ask God for themselves for confirmation of what has been taught, the same thing that investigators are told to do. No one knows beforehand what the answer will be or if they will receive one. The purpose revelation is to clear up doubt and instill a sure knowledge of things that otherwise could not be known. The why on earth would someone ask God to reveal something to them which they are already fully convinced is correct? I certainly never would.

But this is the crux of it is it not> Pray for confirmatio that it is true, that is is from God. If anyone claims that there was no confirmation, they are told to keep trying. If they get confirmation that it is not true, they got the wrong message.

[_gramps]

It's not a far leap from that to the notion that a member's thinking (and apparent revealing) has already been done for them. All they must do is follow the church. Why bother asking God if "God" will never contradict the church?

Good grief this is pure sophistry. The Church teaches its members to ask God for themselves for confirmation of what has been taught, the same thing that investigators are told to do. No one knows beforehand what the answer will be or if they will receive one. The purpose revelation is to clear up doubt and instill a sure knowledge of things that otherwise could not be known. The why on earth would someone ask God to reveal something to them which they are already fully convinced is correct? I certainly never would.

But this is the crux of it is it not> Pray for confirmatio that it is true, that is is from God. If anyone claims that there was no confirmation, they are told to keep trying. If they get confirmation that it is not true, they got the wrong message.

Yes, or here is the other one. "Come on, you didn't really need to pray about it. You already know it's true!"

[_Jason Bourne]

Did I miss something or did you just commit the same pride and hubris you accuse me of by essentially stating your witness and knowledge trumps that of millions of others that claim to know that what they follow is truth. I have an evangelical friend. He witnesses that reformed theology as held in the protestant low church position is true, the true gospel and any other is another gospel.

He has prayed. He knows scripture. He believes the Holy Ghost has spoken to him. Does your testimony trump his?

The answer is yes, you have most definitely missed something.

No I do not think so. Your ranting below confirms it. Hubris and pride indeed. But you missed my questions Coggins. Let's try again:

I have an evangelical friend. He witnesses that reformed theology as held in the protestant low church position is true, the true gospel and any other is another gospel.

He has prayed. He knows scripture. He believes the Holy Ghost has spoken to him. Does your testimony trump his?


Try to answer it succicntly if you will.

You know, its interesting that based upon your own attitude and statements made here, you would have told Jesus to his face that he was full of it when he claimed that he was "the way, the truth, and the life" and that no one comes to the Father but by him.

I would have? Wow. And you now have the hubris to read my mind. Can you say ad hominem Loran. Is this challenging your neat and tight little world view a bit that you are so hostile?

Paul said that there was no other way nor means other than Jesus Christ by which we could be saved, you would, presumably, have told him he was full of hubris and arrogance. Who, after all, was Jesus, or Paul, or Peter, to claim exclusive right to the ultimate truth, what with the millions of other people in the ancient world worshiping other gods in other belief systems. Just who did he think he was?

Can you say straw man? Millions believe Jesus and Paul but not Joseph the LDS Church or you. Would they have rejected Jesus and Paul too. What about my evangelical friend?

So just throw your hands up in despair, roll your eyes and dismiss the testimony of the Saints, resist the Spirit, and rebel against God.

And there we have it. The answer to the OP here is that no, you cannot pray and get a different answer. It is either Joseph was right about plural marriage et all or you got the wrong message. But my EV friend think it is me and you that are rebelling against God by following a flase prophet. He has confirmation of this. Why is he wrong and you are not? Why does your personal knowledge trump his? Can you not see how subjective this is?

That's all well and good, but don't accuse me of hubris.

Sorry dude. You have it tons more then I do or ever did.

What I'm telling you is simply the truth as its been made known to me out of concern for your soul. It was you, not me, who presumed to know my heart.

And I acknowledged that I do not know your heart and said that was wrong. The hubris I noted in you was you knowing the hearts of millions of others as well as mine now as you think I would be anti Christ. Pot and kettle Coggy old boy.

[_Jason Bourne]

The idea of the Restored Gospel, however, is that the visible, organized Kingdom of God on earth is a central divinely authorized locus from which the fundamental truths about the nature of God, man, and mankind;s relationship to God are disseminated to the world by legal administrators who are authorized, not only to teach the Gospel, but of overarching importance, to administer in the ordinances of salvation. The Restored Gospel is a "clearing house" so to speak of the great and important truths about mankind's place in the universe; about the great story of the human condition told through divine authority in its purity free of human accretions.

So its not that spiritual experiences are not available to non-members of the Church, its that the full range of them are not available.

And once again My EV friend, while I may disagree with him, believes he has and is part of the invisible church of Jesus Christ and that this is the true Church, not our. And he knows it, or at least says he does, as much as you do or I used to about ours. He would take great offence to your claim in the last sentence.

[_Jason Bourne]

but I knew, deep down, that the church wasn't true.

Uh, you mean to say, you believed the church wasn't true.

I know something you don't know...

Uh you mean to say you believe the Church is true.

She knows something that you don't................

[_ozemc]

But why is it ALL true even if God called him? David fell. Joseph could have too. Any thing after the first vision, if it indeed happened could all be a lie for all we know.

Well go back and look at things from that time forward, I asked Harmony to do the same thing. Look at the Doctrines taught from 1831 onward. All of the things dealing with Priesthood, the Temple, Laws of Consecration. Look at the King Follet Discource. D&C 76, 84, 88, 93, 132. Look at the Doctrines taught in the Book of Moses and The Book of Abraham. Then ask yourself the question "Did Joseph lose his mantle of a Prophet?"

You do know that the Book Of Abraham is fake, right? They've found the originals. It's an old Egyptian funeral text.

I appreciate your remarks but is this just not another way of saying "put it on the shelf and don't worry yourself over it." Then go back, get the right answer, because any other answer is wrong.

I'm not saying this at all. I am saying that you can't spend all your time in the trenchs. Make a list line by line of the specific problems and tackle them one by one, but don't forget to take a break and rebuild (reload) the spirit with something faith promoting between the study sessions. There is nothing wrong with delveing into the heavier things, just don't forget to shore up your foundation along the way. I would also recommend that you keep a notebook. Make the first page your list and tackle each problem one by one and keep a record.


And as long as you are delving into the things of God, do it with his counsel in prayer. Watch for the Holy Ghost and if you are asking questions ask them in a yes or no fashion so that the answers will be easy to determine.

Gaz

Again, the question remains .... what if the answer is NO?

You ask the Holy Spirit if the Book of Mormon is true, and He says NO!

You ask if Joseph Smith was a prophet and He says NO!

You ask if the church is true and He says NO!

What do you do then, Gaz? Just keep praying until He changes His mind?

[_Jason Bourne]

Sometimes these conversations are like falling into bizarro land, where someone who claims to "know" things which have perplexed the greatest minds humanity has ever produced accuses OTHER people of pride and hubris.

It's opposite day every day!!!

It pleases me to know that I am not the only one that feels so incredulous about this.