Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

Post by _beastie »

It is obvious a cycle of negativity exists between exmormons and Mormons (speaking in generalities, of course, individual exceptions to any rule exist, but, in general, seem to prove the rule by standing out as an exception). Some believers even express the desire to stop this cycle of negativity, as do some exbelievers. So where does the cycle begin?

The cycle begins in teachings by church leaders that encourage bigotry against those who have lost their faith in the LDS church. The majority of exmormons have been exposed to many years, often decades, of these teachings - hence, the moment they lose faith, they know what the believers who remain faithful "think" and "say" about them (with some exceptions). After all, we heard it for years.

Here are some examples of this bigotry that is openly taught by LDS leaders:

Apostates

12 Preventing Personal Apostasy 35554, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 12: Preventing Personal Apostasy, 79

Apostasy is turning away from the Church and ultimately denying the faith.

What is that which turns people away from this Church? Very trifling affairs are generally the commencement of their divergence from the right path. If we follow a compass, the needle of which does not point correctly, a very slight deviation in the beginning will lead us, when we have traveled some distance, far to one side of the true point for which we are aiming (DBY, 83).

If the Saints neglect to pray, and violate the day that is set apart for the worship of God, they will lose his Spirit. If a man shall suffer himself to be overcome with anger, and curse and swear, taking the name of the Deity in vain, he cannot retain the Holy Spirit. In short, if a man shall do anything which he knows to be wrong, and repenteth not, he cannot enjoy the Holy Spirit, but will walk in darkness and ultimately deny the faith (DBY, 85).

It is most astonishing to every principle of intelligence that any man or woman will close their eyes upon eternal things after they have been made acquainted with them, and let the . . . things of this world, the lusts of the eye, and the lusts of the flesh, entangle their minds and draw them one hair’s breadth from the principles of life (DBY, 82).

It was said here this morning that no person ever apostatized, without actual transgression. Omission of duty leads to commission (DBY, 82).


My comments: It is bigotry to suggest that exbelievers abandon belief due to "trifling reasons", due to knowing wrong-doing, due to sins or wanting to sin. It is bigotry to make offensive generalizations about an entire group of individuals.


When we find fault with Church leaders, we begin to separate ourselves from the Church.

Whenever there is a disposition manifested in any of the members of this Church to question the right of the President of the whole Church to direct in all things, you see manifested evidences of apostasy—of a spirit which, if encouraged, will lead to a separation from the Church and to final destruction; wherever there is a disposition to operate against any legally appointed officer of this Kingdom, no matter in what capacity he is called to act, if persisted in, it will be followed by the same results; they will “walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed; they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities” [see 2 Peter 2:10] (DBY, 83).

When a man begins to find fault, inquiring in regard to this, that, and the other, saying, “Does this or that look as though the Lord dictated it?” you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy. Every man in this Kingdom, or upon the face of the earth, who is seeking with all his heart to save himself, has as much to do as he can conveniently attend to, without calling in question that which does not belong to him. If he succeeds in saving himself, it has well occupied his time and attention. See to it that you are right yourselves; see that sins and folly do not manifest themselves with the rising sun (DBY, 83).

Many imbibe [conceive] the idea that they are capable of leading out in teaching principles that never have been taught. They are not aware that the moment they give way to this hallucination the Devil has power over them to lead them onto unholy ground; though this is a lesson which they ought to have learned long ago, yet it is one that was learned by but few in the days of Joseph (DBY, 77–78).

[Such a person] will make false prophecies, yet he will do it by the spirit of prophecy; he will feel that he is a prophet and can prophesy, but he does it by another spirit and power than that which was given him of the Lord. He uses the gift as much as you and I use ours (DBY, 82).

One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop? (DBY, 86).

No man gets power from God to raise disturbance in any Branch of the Church. Such power is obtained from an evil source (DBY, 72).

People do, however, leave this Church, but they leave it because they get into darkness, and the very day they conclude that there should be a democratic vote, or in other words, that we should have two candidates for the presiding Priesthood in the midst of the Latter-day Saints, they conclude to be apostates. There is no such thing as confusion, division, strife, animosity, hatred, malice, or two sides to the question in the house of God; there is but one side to the question there (DBY, 85).

Those who lose the Spirit are filled with darkness and confusion.

When men lose the spirit of the work in which we are engaged, they become infidel in their feelings. They say that they do not know whether the Bible is true, whether the Book of Mormon is true, nor about new revelations, nor whether there is a God or not. When they lose the spirit of this work, they lose the knowledge of the things of God in time and in eternity; all is lost to them (DBY, 83–84).

Men begin to apostatize by taking to themselves strength, by hearkening to the whisperings of the enemy who leads them astray little by little, until they gather to themselves that which they call the wisdom of man; then they begin to depart from God, and their minds become confused (DBY, 84).

What have the Latter-day Saints got to apostatize from? Everything that there is good, pure, holy, God-like, exalting, ennobling, extending the ideas, the capacities of the intelligent beings that our Heavenly Father has brought forth upon this earth. What will they receive in exchange? I can comprehend it in a very few words. These would be the words that I should use: death, hell and the grave. That is what they will get in exchange. We may go into the particulars of that which they experience. They experience darkness, ignorance, doubt, pain, sorrow, grief, mourning, unhappiness; no person to condole [lament] with in the hour of trouble, no arm to lean upon in the day of calamity, no eye to pity when they are forlorn and cast down; and I comprehend it by saying death, hell and the grave. This is what they will get in exchange for their apostasy from the Gospel of the Son of God(DBY, 85).

You have known men who, while in the Church, were active, quick and full of intelligence; but after they have left the Church, they have become contracted in their understandings, they have become darkened in their minds and everything has become a mystery to them, and in regard to the things of God, they have become like the rest of the world, who think, hope and pray that such and such things may be so, but they do not know the least about it. This is precisely the position of those who leave this Church; they go into the dark, they are not able to judge, conceive or comprehend things as they are. They are like the drunken man—he thinks that everybody is the worse for liquor but himself, and he is the only sober man in the neighborhood. The apostates think that everybody is wrong but themselves (DBY, 84).

Those who leave the Church are like a feather blown to and fro in the air. They know not whither they are going; they do not understand anything about their own existence; their faith, judgment and the operation of their minds are as unstable as the movements of the feather floating in the air. We have not anything to cling to, only faith in the Gospel (DBY, 84).


My comments: It is bigotry to teach that any member who criticizes a leader is embracing the evil one. It is bigotry to teach that when people lose faith in the LDS church, they can no longer know God. It is bigotry to teach that those who leave the church used to be intelligent, but now are darkened and unable to comprehend.

Chapter 13 Stand by the Truth Lest You Be Deceived
35744, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 13: Stand by the Truth Lest You Be Deceived, From the Life of Joseph F. Smith, 113

Among the Latter-day Saints, the preaching of false doctrines disguised as truths of the gospel, may be expected from people of two classes, and practically from these only; they are:

First—The hopelessly ignorant, whose lack of intelligence is due to their indolence and sloth, who make but feeble effort, if indeed any at all, to better themselves by reading and study; those who are afflicted with a dread disease that may develop into an incurable malady—laziness.

Second—The proud and self-vaunting ones, who read by the lamp of their own conceit; who interpret by rules of their own contriving; who have become a law unto themselves, and so pose as the sole judges of their own doings. More dangerously ignorant than the first.

Beware of the lazy and the proud.

The Latter-day Saints by this time should be so well settled in the conviction that God has established his Church in the earth for the last time, to remain, and no more to be thrown down or destroyed; and that God’s house is a house of order, of law, of regularity, that erratic disturbers of that order of men of restless temperament, who, through ignorance and egotism, become vain babblers, yet make great pretensions to prophetic powers and other spiritual graces and gifts, ought not to have any influence with them, nor ought the Saints to be disturbed in their spirit by such characters and their theories. The Church of Christ is with the Saints. It has committed to it the law of God for its own government and perpetuation. It possesses every means for the correction of every wrong or abuse or error which may from time to time arise, and that without anarchy, or even revolution; it can do it by process of evolution—by development, by an increase of knowledge, wisdom, patience and charity.

The presiding quorums of the Church will always be composed of such men, they will be chosen in such manner, that the Saints can be assured that solid wisdom, righteousness, and conscientious adherence to duty, will characterize the policy of those who are entrusted with the administration of the affairs of the Church.


My comments: it is bigotry to teach that anyone who teaches something contrary to what the leaders teach is vain or ignorant.

Apostasy
36863, True to the Faith, Apostasy, 13
When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy.


My comments - just sharing this to stop the silliness of pretending that "apostate" means something other than that which it means in church teachings - ie, someone who has lost faith in the LDS church.

35685, D & C and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, 24: “Be Not Deceived, but Continue in Steadfastness”, Purpose, 134

1. We should recognize the deceptions of Satan that can lead us into apostasy.

Explain that during the early years of the Church, some members were deceived by Satan and led into apostasy, or rebellion against God. A few members who apostatized became enemies of the Church and contributed to the persecutions of the Saints in Ohio and Missouri. As members of the Church today, we must be faithful and watchful so we are not deceived.

• Read D&C 50:2–3 and 2 Nephi 2:18, 2 Nephi 2:27 with class members. Why does Satan want to deceive us? What are some of the ways in which Satan tries to deceive us and lead us into apostasy? (Use the following information to discuss or add to class members’ responses. Write the headings on the chalkboard.)

Not recognizing the prophet as the source of revelation for the Church

Some members are deceived by false prophets. The following account shows how several early Saints were temporarily deceived by false revelations.

In 1830, Hiram Page, one of the Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon, possessed a stone through which he claimed to receive revelations about the building of Zion and the order of the Church. Oliver Cowdery, the Whitmers, and others believed these claims. However, the Prophet Joseph Smith said the claims “were entirely at variance with the order of God’s house, as laid down in the New Testament, as well as in our late revelations” (History of the Church, 1:110).
The Prophet prayed about the matter and received a revelation in which the Lord made clear that only the President of the Church has the right to receive revelations for the Church (D&C 28). The Lord instructed Oliver Cowdery to tell Hiram Page that the revelations that came through the stone were from Satan (D&C 28:11). After hearing the Lord’s instructions, “Brother Page, as well as the whole Church who were present, renounced the said stone, and all things connected therewith” (History of the Church, 1:115).

Pride

Some members are deceived because of their pride. The following story illustrates how pride led Thomas B. Marsh, who was President of the Quorum of the Twelve, and his wife, Elizabeth, into apostasy.

While living in Far West, Missouri, Sister Marsh and Sister Harris decided to exchange milk so they could each make a larger cheese than they otherwise could. They agreed to send each other both the milk and the cream from their cows. But Sister Marsh saved a pint of cream from each cow and sent Sister Harris the milk without the cream.
A quarrel arose, and the matter was referred to the bishop. When he determined that Sister Marsh had violated her agreement, she and her husband were upset and appealed the matter to the high council and then to the First Presidency. Each council approved the original decision that Sister Marsh had been in error.

Thomas B. Marsh declared that he would sustain the character of his wife. Soon afterward, he turned against the Church and went before a government official to declare that the Latter-day Saints were hostile toward the state of Missouri. (See George A. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 3:283–84.)

President Gordon B. Hinckley said of this incident: “What a very small and trivial thing—a little cream over which two women quarreled. But it led to, or at least was a factor in, Governor Boggs’ cruel exterminating order which drove the Saints from the state of Missouri, with all of the terrible suffering and consequent death that followed. The man who should have settled this little quarrel, but who, rather, pursued it, . . . lost his standing in the Church. He lost his testimony of the gospel” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1984, 111; or Ensign, May 1984, 83).

After 19 years of darkness and bitterness, Thomas B. Marsh painfully made his way to the Salt Lake Valley and asked Brigham Young to forgive him and permit his rebaptism into the Church. He wrote to Heber C. Kimball, First Counselor in the First Presidency: “I began to awake to a sense of my situation; . . . I know that I have sinned against Heaven and in thy sight.” He then described the lesson he had learned: “The Lord could get along very well without me and He has lost nothing by my falling out of the ranks; But O what have I lost?! Riches, greater riches than all this world or many planets like this could afford” (quoted by James E. Faust, in Conference Report, Apr. 1996, 6; or Ensign, May 1996, 7).

• What can we learn from this story? How have you seen pride lead people into deception and apostasy? What does the Lord promise to those who humble themselves before Him? (See D&C 112:2–3, D&C 112:10; Ether 12:27. Note that D&C 112 is a revelation given to Thomas B. Marsh through the Prophet Joseph Smith.)

Being critical of leaders’ imperfections

Some members are deceived because they become critical of Church leaders’ imperfections. The following story illustrates how Simonds Ryder was deceived in this way.

Simonds Ryder was converted to the Church in 1831. Later he received a letter signed by the Prophet Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, informing him that it was the Lord’s will, made manifest by the Spirit, that he preach the gospel. Both in the letter he received and in the official commission to preach, his name was spelled Rider instead of Ryder. Simonds Ryder “thought if the ‘Spirit’ through which he had been called to preach could err in the matter of spelling his name, it might have erred in calling him to the ministry as well; or, in other words, he was led to doubt if he were called at all by the Spirit of God, because of the error in spelling his name!” (History of the Church, 1:261). Simonds Ryder later apostatized from the Church.

• What can we learn from this story? How does being critical of our Church leaders make us more susceptible to deception?

Being offended

Some Church members become offended by the actions of other members and allow an offense to fester until they are led into apostasy. An example of this is illustrated in the following incident.

When the Kirtland Temple was completed, many Saints gathered for the dedication. The seats in the temple filled quickly, and many people were allowed to stand, but still not everyone could be accommodated inside the building. Elder Frazier Eaton, who had given $700 for the building of the temple, arrived after it had been filled, so he was not allowed inside for the dedication. The dedication was repeated the next day for those who could not be accommodated the first day, but this did not satisfy Frazier Eaton, and he apostatized. (See George A. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 11:9.)

• What can we learn from this story? How do we today allow ourselves to be offended by others? How can being offended lead to apostasy? How can we overcome feelings of being offended?

• Read D&C 64:8–11 and D&C 82:1 with class members. Whom does the Lord require us to forgive? Why is it sometimes difficult to be forgiving? What are some of the consequences of not forgiving someone? What can we do to help us forgive someone whom we have not yet forgiven?

Rationalizing disobedience

Rationalizing is excusing or defending unacceptable behavior. It is looking for a way to ease our consciences for doing something we know is wrong.
• How is rationalization a form of deception? How do we sometimes try to rationalize our behavior? Why is this dangerous? How can we recognize and overcome rationalization?
Accepting the false teachings of the world
• What are some of the false teachings of the world that can deceive members and lead them into apostasy? (Examples could include the false ideas that the commandments of God are too restrictive, that immorality is acceptable, and that material possessions are more important than spiritual things.)

Presiding Bishop H. David Burton taught: “One of [Satan’s] insidious strategies is to progressively soften our senses regarding what is right and wrong. Satan would have us convinced that it is fashionable to lie and cheat. He encourages us to view pornography by suggesting that it prepares us for the real world. He would have us believe that immorality is an attractive way of life and that obedience to the commandments of our Father in Heaven is old-fashioned. Satan constantly bombards us with deceptive propaganda desirably packaged and carefully disguised” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1993, 60; or Ensign, May 1993, 46).

2. We can remain valiant in our testimonies and avoid deception.
Explain that the Lord has given us many blessings and commandments to help us remain valiant in our testimonies and avoid being deceived.

• What can we do to keep ourselves from being deceived and led into apostasy? (Use the following information to develop this discussion.)
We can know clearly whom the Lord has called to lead the Church
• During the early years of the Church, many people claimed to receive revelations to guide the Church or correct the Prophet Joseph Smith. What did the Lord reveal in response to these claims? (See D&C 28:2, D&C 28:6–7; D&C 43:1–3. Point out that D&C 28 was revealed when Hiram Page claimed to receive revelations for the entire Church, and D&C 43 was revealed when others made similar claims.)
• Who receives revelations and commandments for the entire Church today?
President Joseph F. Smith and his counselors in the First Presidency taught: “The Lord has . . . appointed one man at a time on the earth to hold the keys of revelation to the entire body of the Church in all its organizations, authorities, ordinances and doctrines. The spirit of revelation is bestowed upon all its members for the benefit and enlightenment of each individual receiving its inspiration, and according to the sphere in which he or she is called to labor. But for the entire Church, he who stands at the head is alone appointed to receive revelations by way of commandment and as the end of controversy” (in James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. [1965–75], 4:270).
• How can we avoid being deceived by those who claim falsely to have received revelation for the Church? (See D&C 43:4–7.)
• Read D&C 26:2 and D&C 28:13 with class members. What is the principle of common consent? (See D&C 20:65; D&C 42:11. It is the practice of showing that we are willing to sustain those who are called to serve in the Church, usually by raising our right hands.) How can the principle of common consent protect us from being deceived? (It allows us to know who has been called to preside and administer in the Church, thus keeping us from being deceived by the claims of those who have not been properly called.)
Display a chart of current General Authorities (see “Preparation,” item 3). Emphasize the blessing we have of sustaining these leaders and following their counsel.
We should study the scriptures and the doctrines of the Church
• Read D&C 1:37 and D&C 33:16 with class members. Explain that throughout the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord teaches the importance of studying the scriptures. How can studying the scriptures and the words of latter-day prophets help us avoid being deceived? (Answers could include those listed below.)
a. We can better discern the truthfulness of ideas by comparing them with the truths we learn from the scriptures and our current leaders.

President Harold B. Lee taught: “If [someone] writes something or speaks something that goes beyond anything that you can find in the standard Church works, unless that one be the prophet, seer, and revelator—please note that one exception—you may immediately say, ‘Well, that is his own idea.’ And if he says something that contradicts what is found in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1996], 540–41).

b. Scripture study strengthens our testimonies so we are less likely to become complacent in righteousness or to be influenced by false doctrine.
President Lee taught, “If we’re not reading the scriptures daily, our testimonies are growing thinner, our spirituality isn’t increasing in depth” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, 152).
• How has studying the scriptures protected you from being deceived?
We should recognize that the things of God will always edify us
The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that soon after the Saints were settled in Kirtland, “many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out of doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; . . . many ridiculous things were entered into, calculated to bring disgrace upon the Church of God, to cause the Spirit of God to be withdrawn” (History of the Church, 4:580). Concerned by these excessive spiritual displays, the Prophet inquired of the Lord. The revelation in D&C 50 is the Lord’s response.
• Read D&C 50:17–24 with class members. What do these verses teach about how we can discern the things of God from the things of Satan? (The things of God will edify us by enlightening our minds and helping us grow spiritually. They make us want to follow the Savior and improve our lives. The things of Satan will do the opposite.)
President Joseph Fielding Smith taught: “There is no saying of greater truth than ‘that which doth not edify is not of God.’ And that which is not of God is darkness, it matters not whether it comes in the guise of religion, ethics, philosophy or revelation. No revelation from God will fail to edify” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 2 vols. [1953], 1:201–2).
We should apply the Lord’s pattern for protecting ourselves from being deceived
The Lord revealed D&C 52 the day after a conference in Kirtland. In this revelation He provides a pattern by which we can avoid being deceived.
• Read D&C 52:14–19 with class members. According to these verses, what are the characteristics of teachers who are “of God”? How can the pattern that is given in this passage help us avoid being deceived?
Conclusion
Review the deceptions of Satan that can lead to apostasy. Review the counsel the Lord has given for protecting ourselves from deception. Emphasize that as we follow this counsel, the Spirit of the Lord will keep us in the way of truth. As prompted by the Spirit, testify of the truths discussed during the lesson.
Additional Teaching Ideas
You may want to use one or both of the following ideas to supplement the suggested lesson outline.
1. Activity to introduce the first section of the lesson
Prepare a note for each class member. Each note could contain a short message of appreciation or an assignment to read a scripture in class or to participate in some other way. However, spell each person’s name wrong in some small way. Distribute the notes at the beginning of the first section of the lesson to introduce the story of Simonds Ryder and the other stories in that section.
2. Additional counsel about how to strengthen ourselves against apostasy
Elder Carlos E. Asay of the Seventy specified the following things we can do to strengthen ourselves against apostasy:
“1. Avoid those who would tear down your faith. . . .
“2. Keep the commandments. . . .
“3. Follow the living prophets. . . .
“4. Do not contend or debate over points of doctrine. [See 3 Nephi 11:29.]
“5. Search the scriptures. . . .
“6. Do not be swayed or diverted from the mission of the Church. . . .
“7. Pray for your enemies. . . .
“8. Practice ‘pure religion.’ [See James 1:27 and Alma 1:30.] . . .
“9. Remember that there may be many questions for which we have no answers and that some things have to be accepted simply on faith” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1981, 93–94; or Ensign, Nov. 1981, 67–68).


My comments: it is bigotry to state that the reasons people lose faith in the church are entirely negative and reflective of their own poor characters.,

A Warning from Kirtland Milton V. Backman Jr., “A Warning from Kirtland,” Ensign, Apr. 1989, 26

Saints who looked back on this period learned some compelling lessons of which we today need to be aware. One of the pointed lessons we learn from the Kirtland apostasy is that no one should consider himself secure from the loss of faith. Pride, criticism, speculation, envy, greed—these are enough to cause the most faithful to stumble. Parley P. Pratt, for example, declared that “envyings, lyings, strifes and divisions” caused “trouble and sorrow” in Kirtland. He admitted that he was a victim of these failings. But the Lord knew his faith—his “integrity of purpose”—and helped him in his victory against an opposing spirit. 20



http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=396
A Passion for Faultfinding: The Deconversion of a Former Catholic Priest
Review of When Mormons Call: Answering Mormon Missionaries at Your Door by Isaiah Bennett
Reviewed By: Barry R. Bickmore
Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2001. Pp. 201–81

A favorite tactic among anti-Mormon writers is to impute sinister motives to everything the Latter-day Saints do.


Also a favorite tactic among TMBs.

A personal example from ZLMB

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispages ... 1&stop=260
A Selective Continuing Commentary on Grant Palmer.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_maklelan
_Emeritus
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:51 am

Re: Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

Post by _maklelan »

beastie wrote:It is obvious a cycle of negativity exists between exmormons and Mormons (speaking in generalities, of course, individual exceptions to any rule exist, but, in general, seem to prove the rule by standing out as an exception). Some believers even express the desire to stop this cycle of negativity, as do some exbelievers. So where does the cycle begin?

The cycle begins in teachings by church leaders that encourage bigotry against those who have lost their faith in the LDS church.


That begins the cycle? What came first, the apostate who attacked the church or the church leader who attacked the apostate?
I like you Betty...

My blog
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

That begins the cycle? What came first, the apostate who attacked the church or the church leader who attacked the apostate?


So if one individual who left the church then attacked it in the very early days of the church's history, then all subsequent attacks on apostates are justified? That makes very little sense to me.

Moreover, the cycle, at the individual, familial, and community level, begins with the offensive, bigoted church teachings regarding apostates. We were all members before becoming apostates. We all heard this bigotry for decades before suddenly finding ourselves on the "other" side of the fence. We leave behind believers who still continue to hear this bigotry. So the cycle will never stop until the church stops peddling this bigotry.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_cksalmon
_Emeritus
Posts: 1267
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:20 pm

Re: Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

Post by _cksalmon »

maklelan wrote:
beastie wrote:It is obvious a cycle of negativity exists between exmormons and Mormons (speaking in generalities, of course, individual exceptions to any rule exist, but, in general, seem to prove the rule by standing out as an exception). Some believers even express the desire to stop this cycle of negativity, as do some exbelievers. So where does the cycle begin?

The cycle begins in teachings by church leaders that encourage bigotry against those who have lost their faith in the LDS church.


That begins the cycle? What came first, the apostate who attacked the church or the church leader who attacked the apostate?


How about the church leaders who anathematized, negativized, and ostracized the hypothetical apostate, such that private apostasy (vis-a-vis open apostasy) comes to be seen (by some) as a far weightier counterbalance to personal honesty, if and when one cannot, in good conscience, believe the Church's truth claims any longer?

I think that was sort of the point, but I could be wrong.

Best.

CKS
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Deuteronomy 13:12-18

Post by _Gazelam »

12 ¶ If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.


Sounds to me like they took apostacy pretty serious in Old Testament days as well. And the worship of a God is the worship of anything that seperates you from God. That which you spend your free time doing is that which you worship.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_maklelan
_Emeritus
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:51 am

Post by _maklelan »

beastie wrote:
That begins the cycle? What came first, the apostate who attacked the church or the church leader who attacked the apostate?


So if one individual who left the church then attacked it in the very early days of the church's history, then all subsequent attacks on apostates are justified? That makes very little sense to me.


I'm not saying they're justified, but your question was what began the cycle, and I answered it. You ask the question presumably so you could place repsonsiblity for ending it in the lap of the church.

beastie wrote:Moreover, the cycle, at the individual, familial, and community level, begins with the offensive, bigoted church teachings regarding apostates. We were all members before becoming apostates. We all heard this bigotry for decades before suddenly finding ourselves on the "other" side of the fence. We leave behind believers who still continue to hear this bigotry. So the cycle will never stop until the church stops peddling this bigotry.


My presumption is verified. What will happen if the church offers no voice against apostates who will never stop? You know as well as me that many apostates out there will not stop until the church is gone. The very nature of the designation "apostate" precludes a peaceful coexistence. A refusal on the part of the church to respond to criticism will only hurt the church and help the apostates.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_maklelan
_Emeritus
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:51 am

Re: Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

Post by _maklelan »

cksalmon wrote:How about the church leaders who anathematized, negativized, and ostracized the hypothetical apostate, such that private apostasy (vis-a-vis open apostasy) comes to be seen (by some) as a far weightier counterbalance to personal honesty, if and when one cannot, in good conscience, believe the Church's truth claims any longer?


That doesn't answer the question of how the cycle began unless you speak of warnings against apostasy before it actually occured, which I don't think is what you're trying to say.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Post by _Jersey Girl »

beastie,

I briefly scanned the thread you linked to. Who was "Free Thinker"? I recall some controversy about Free Thinker but not in detail.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

President Benson believed that "Second, the Book of Mormon exposes the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 Nephi 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time.

from The Book of Mormon is the Word of God
http://www.geocities.com/graymada/Book-of-Mormon.html

The apostates described in the Book of Mormon always become worse than any other regular ole' evil enemy of the church. They are the epitome of evil incarnate.

Since the Book of Mormon was written before a church was even established, I would say this is evidence that the "chicken and the egg" argument is settled. Demonizing apostates was on the agenda even before a church was established.

Aside from church history chicken and eggery, the point I was trying to make was that in our lives, the cycle begins with what the LDS church teaches its members today. We all began as members. Some left. But it was during that common culture that our minds were filled with bigoted teachings against those who leave the church. This results in a certain continual conflict.

Let's say, for example, a mythical, isolated, rural community exists that teaches its members that people who choose to leave the community and head to the "big city" (ie, any community larger and less isolated) is doing so for evil reasons, or reasons connected to personal character flaws. But at times people do leave this community, and then both the exiter and those who remain try to maintain relationships. Obviously the bigoted teachings have already poisoned the well, and create extreme difficulties. Until the community stops teaching the bigotry to begin with, the cycle will not stop. Does it really matter if the first person who ever left the community really did do so for evil reasons? Is that a justified reason to continue teaching generalized bigotry and ensuring a cycle of distrust, anger, resentment, etc?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

I briefly scanned the thread you linked to. Who was "Free Thinker"? I recall some controversy about Free Thinker but not in detail.


Free Thinker was Dan Peterson.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Post Reply