Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

beastie wrote:Ha, many early LDS would never, never have believed that the church would stop practicing polygamy, either. And yet it happened. The church survived, but changed. Change is possible - in fact, I've been told over and over that is one of the strengths of the LDS church. All it would take is one prophet to speak differently about the subject, and thousands of Mormon minds would change along with his. (not all, of course, but many)

I'm not saying this change is destined or inevitable, it might not be. The church might retrench itself and become even more hostile to apostates. I'm just saying I think it's possible.


I don't think change is impossible, beastie. It just doesn't come because members are asking for it.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I don't' want to get far off topic but it brought to mind a question I had wanted to ask you a while back. Have you ever seen any other faith that takes it personal when somebody discusses their church history? I have never seen Catholics as a whole get hostile or personally offended when people discuss the negative aspects in the history of the Catholic church, but yet Mormons (especially apologists) are unable to discuss anything negative in their church history. It's always personal for LDS. Just something I have never seen with any other religion but Mormonism and wondered what your experience has been since you were not raised in Mormon culture.


In my experience, most mainstream Christian believers don't have the slightest interest in their own church history, and there really isn't a big reason to be interested in it. Mormonism is one of those religions that, because it makes the "one true" claim, has its history intricately tied to its truth claims. So I think a more analogous question would be if people take it personally if someone discusses their truth claims. In my experience, protestants usually don't, and under most circumstances, neither do catholics. I did lurk on a catholic board for a while back when I was still a theist/borderline deist trying to decide if I wanted to join another church, and they had a very heated "discussion" between irish catholics and, If I recall correctly, English catholics about some bit of history. I think it had more to do with the connected political repercussions, though.

I think part of this has to do with the growth cycle of religion in general. When religions are "young", like Mormonism, they tend to be more radical, they are a reaction against the staid, status-quo, bureaucratic mainstream religions. They demonstrate more characteristics that people today call "cult-like". They often divide families and sometimes totally remove from the larger society. They usually have a powerful, charismatic leader. They make controversial claims, tend to be led by hot blooded visionaries. Then, as time goes on, if they survive, they actually become the staid status quo that some new visionary will react against one day. Ironic. The cycle of life, eh?

So I think it is the "young" religions that tend to be more tied to their histories, which are part of their basic truth claims. I think they tend to be more "one true" sorts and create believers who enmesh their identities within the religion to the extent that many believers cannot differentiate between criticism of the self and criticism of the religion.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Ray,

I agree with runtu in that the change won't come because members are asking for it. It will be top-down. It will come from the prophet and GAs. I don't think it is the prophet and GAs that are in the trenches being confronted with constant criticism from critics. I would guess they're probably rather insulated from it, just like politicians get insulated from real life. They're surrounded by too many handlers, filtering information. So it's the people in the trenches, the apologists, who will get more hostile as the church gets criticized more and more. And it will, no doubt, due to the internet, in my opinion. But I'm not convinced that will translate to the bunker mentality in the high leadership.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

beastie wrote:Ray,

I agree with runtu in that the change won't come because members are asking for it. It will be top-down. It will come from the prophet and GAs. I don't think it is the prophet and GAs that are in the trenches being confronted with constant criticism from critics. I would guess they're probably rather insulated from it, just like politicians get insulated from real life. They're surrounded by too many handlers, filtering information. So it's the people in the trenches, the apologists, who will get more hostile as the church gets criticized more and more. And it will, no doubt, due to the internet, in my opinion. But I'm not convinced that will translate to the bunker mentality in the high leadership.


We have a winner. The only time they'll hear from the critics is when some irked apologist or stake president calls Packer and wants something done. Otherwise, the church will operate as Packer described: we all face the same direction, taking orders from the top.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:Ray,

I agree with runtu in that the change won't come because members are asking for it. It will be top-down. It will come from the prophet and GAs. I don't think it is the prophet and GAs that are in the trenches being confronted with constant criticism from critics. I would guess they're probably rather insulated from it, just like politicians get insulated from real life. They're surrounded by too many handlers, filtering information. So it's the people in the trenches, the apologists, who will get more hostile as the church gets criticized more and more. And it will, no doubt, due to the internet, in my opinion. But I'm not convinced that will translate to the bunker mentality in the high leadership.


What do you mean? We have Boyd K. Packer and David Bednar posting on this very board :)
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Ray A wrote:What do you mean? We have Boyd K. Packer and David Bednar posting on this very board :)


Thanks for making me laugh out loud, Ray. I was just trying to remember how long I've known you. It's got to be at least 4 years, back when I was posting as Johnny_cat. You've had a rough trip through Mormonism, rougher than mine, anyway.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Runtu wrote:
Ray A wrote:What do you mean? We have Boyd K. Packer and David Bednar posting on this very board :)


Thanks for making me laugh out loud, Ray. I was just trying to remember how long I've known you. It's got to be at least 4 years, back when I was posting as Johnny_cat. You've had a rough trip through Mormonism, rougher than mine, anyway.


Glad I could make you laugh, Runtu.

The "trip" is now all water under the bridge.
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Ray A wrote:Glad I could make you laugh, Runtu.

The "trip" is now all water under the bridge.


I wish mine were. I'm still dealing with it every day. But thanks for the laugh.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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