Dr. Shades wrote:Hello folks,
Daniel Peterson saw one of my posts within the
An Anniversary: Revisiting a Mopologetic Milestone thread and responded to it (and me) via e-mail. We went back and forth a couple of times, and I convinced him to allow me to post a portion of our exchanges since I believe it contains very relevant information. In the following copy-&-paste, I've omitted portions that were about other topics.
ALL BOLD EMPASIS IS MINE, NOT HIS:
Thank you very much for posting this, and for persuading the Good Professor to allow you to post it. However, I am still confused on a number of points. Before I go through his remarks, let me respond to your final words, Shades:
Dr. Shades wrote:MY COMMENTARY:
For my part, this sounds wholly believable to me. Let's face it, if we attempt to incriminate DCP for "gossipmongering," apparently we'll have to incriminate the entire Mormon Studies community.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. For one thing, mention of homosexuality among liberal LDS is likely to occur with entirely different motives than it would amongst TBMs, or apologists. For another thing, even if the "gossipmongering" was as widespread as DCP claims, that does not make it any less of a breech of ethics.
Dr. Shades wrote:I also believe in the concept of "innocent until proven guilty," and since DCP was obviously an eyewitness to all this, I see no reason not to take his explanation at face value.
I gather that there is still some question as to just what---if anything---DCP has been guilty of. I think Rollo and myself have maintained all along that the sort of gossip he and his "circle" would have been engaging in on this topic would necessarily (due to his adherence to Church orthodoxy) have been malicious in nature. Moreover, we know that DCP has fun gossiping about his acquaintances and ridiculing them, as evidence by this post (I covered this in an earlier thread):
Daniel Peterson wrote:
There's a famous quote attributed (perhaps incorrectly) to G. K. Chesterton, to the effect that, when people surrender belief in Christianity, they don't surrender belief. In fact, they'll believe almost anything. An analogous phenomenon sometimes seems to occur when Mormons surrender their faith: A neighbor, following a very bitter and ugly divorce, decided that the Church isn't true. But she believes devoutly in every single New Age superstition, every conspiracy theory, every alien abduction, every quack medicine, every nutritional fad, and, when available, every evil rumor about ward and stake leaders. It's positively astonishing.
So, I guess my question to you, Shades, is this: What is it that we should presume DCP is "innocent" of? There doesn't seem to be any disagreement as to whether or not he did, in fact, engage in gossip. That much is quite clear. I suppose we could continue to debate whether or not his participation in this gossiping was malicious in nature, however, and my take on it is: Yes, it was malicious in nature.
Anyways, on to his email:
Daniel C. Peterson wrote:[SNIP!] I’ve just noticed your attempt to sum up the alleged anti-Quinn gossipmongering campaign in which I and others were supposedly engaged:
Dr. Shades wrote:“Judging by what you and Mister Scratch have said, let's see if this is the most likely scenario:
A) Rumors of Quinn's bisexuality swirled among the apologetic intelligentsia for X amount of time. B) It remains unclear who started them or how they began. C) When it was discovered that Quinn had moved back to Utah, one of them jumped at the opportunity to tell Quinn's stake president about it for punitive reasons.
Does that sound about right?
No. It’s crucially wrong at points A and C, though B is accurate.
A. Mike Quinn’s sexual orientation was widely known among people involved in Mormon studies (not merely, or even primarily, among “apologists” or faithful Church members) for many years prior to his official “coming out” in 1996. My impression is that just about everybody seriously involved with Sunstone and the Mormon History Association, for example, seems to have been aware of it. I suspect this to be the case because, when he finally announced his homosexuality, I heard not a single exclamation of surprise. Not one. Precisely how the news got around or how his homosexuality came to be recognized I could not begin to say. As I’ve noted before, I first heard that Quinn was gay when, with Todd Compton, sometime (I believe) between 1982 and 1985, I was visiting in the home of a person in southern California (where I then lived) who would be widely recognized as more sympathetic to Quinn’s theological and historical views than, say, to Bruce McConkie’s. This man was astonished that Todd and I were unaware of something that he thought was universally known.
Could it be that this anonymous man was (drum roll) Robert Crockett, who happens to live in Los Angeles, and who is the sole person to ever have said that Quinn's sexual orientation was "common knowledge"?
As it turns out, Quinn’s homosexuality truly was just about universally known in (believing and unbelieving) Mormon studies circles, and Todd and I were simply among the last to hear about it.
I wish he would have provided some more explanation as to this remark. I.e., since he'd been in the dark for so long, how did he suddenly come to understand that this "was just about universally known"? Did he go around to a bunch of different people, tugging on their sleeves and saying, "Hey, did you know about Mike Quinn"?
(In my case, the explanation may reside in the fact that I had been living in the Middle East essentially from the end of 1977 to the middle of 1982.) Neither Todd Compton nor the man who told us about Quinn would typically be counted among the “apologist community.”
This seems like mere semantic games on his part. I.e., like he was objecting to your summary of the events because you used the term "apologist community." Once again, however, I think this cuts to a central point about the ethics of this whole issue. I ask again: Is an apologist going to be likely to discuss homosexuality in a charitable light?
C. Unless I’m much mistaken, Quinn’s stake president had never met Quinn when my friend spoke with him, but he was already well aware of Quinn’s sexual orientation. (And, frankly, of more than merely his orientation. A sad incident within his stake had brought the matter very painfully to the stake president’s attention.)
Frankly, I find this last bit appalling. What the hell is DCP doing making insinuations of this kind? A very, very nasty sort of low blow, in my opinion. I would be interested in seeing him clarify this.
And I don’t believe that it was my friend who raised the issue of Quinn’s homosexuality, nor even of Quinn in general. As I recall, it was the stake president, an old friend of his, who broached the subject.
Again, what does this mean? Why is Prof. P. being so vague and cagey? What is this SP, who, according to DCP, did not even *know* Quinn, doing discussing him like this?
The visit was not about Quinn, but was simply an encounter between two long-time friends, and the topic of Mike Quinn emerged in passing.
"Emerged in passing"? Are you kidding me? Once more, what does this mean?
[SNIP!] In the small and close-knit community of people involved in Mormon history or Mormon studies, a community containing both faithful believers and dissidents, there’s a lot of informal conversation. That’s how human communities work. It would have been astonishing had Quinn’s sexual orientation not surfaced in some of those chats. But that’s all there ever was. There was no rumor-mongering crusade, and I certainly wasn’t involved in one. I would guess that the subject of Quinn’s homosexuality came up in conversations in which I was involved on maybe half a dozen occasions between the time I first heard of it and his formal “coming out.” I don’t recall ever, not even once, initiating the discussion, and I don’t believe that any of those instances went much beyond mere mention of the fact.
It’s deeply ironic for me to be accused as the impresario of a conspiracy to besmirch Mike Quinn, because, although I knew about his sexual orientation for 11-14 years before he openly acknowledged it, I consciously chose never to write or publish anything at all referring to it. I sat on it, quietly.
This last bit is extremely suspect, in my opinion. He says he "sat on it, quietly." To me, this implies that he felt that he could use this information as a weapon, and, in fact, that he had thought of doing so. It is like he was doing a calculus in his mind where he said, "Gee! What a bombshell I've got! I could totally besmirch Mike Quinn's reputation, but, because I am such a nice and ethical guy, I won't publish anything about it at all. But I could." I think his statement betrays his sense of his own power.
I’ve said this repeatedly. I can’t think of any clearer way than what I’ve already said to state that I was involved in no smear campaign against Mike Quinn and that, in fact, so far as I know, there was no smear campaign against Mike Quinn. [SNIP!]
Best wishes,
Dan Peterson
Then why did he post that material on the FAIRboard, thus initiating one of the Great Moments in Mopologetic history? Did he mention this little story as "mere facts"? Or was he trying to damage Quinn's reputation? Further, why was he involved in the push to get Quinn demoted at the Yale Conference? Basically, I don't think that DCP has really addressed any of the fundamental questions that I still have about this issue.
P.S. On reflection, 1982-1985 seems a bit early to me for my having heard about Quinn’s homosexuality, though I can’t rule it out. Perhaps the conversation occurred during a subsequent visit to California (which I typically visit quite often, because I grew up there and still have family there). So that would mean that I may have known of Quinn’s sexual orientation for as little as, say, only around five years before he came out of the closet. But no less. For various reasons, I think it cannot have been any later than the beginning of the 1990s when I was told of Quinn’s being gay by a very liberal figure in the Mormon studies community, in company with another very liberal member of that community.
Well, this reflects pretty badly on his earlier assertion that this information was as "widely known" as he claims. I don't think that he's bluffing, per se, but something about his account stinks.
A further thing we have not touched on at all is his extreme, apoplectic reaction to our viewing his postings as "gossipmongering." Why has he gotten so bent out of shape over it? That has never made sense to me. After all, we have caught him doing all kinds of things---screwing up his sources in an academic document, for example, or his blunders with the 2nd Watson letter---and he didn't get anywhere near as angry about those things. Why is this Quinn business such a sore spot for him? (The only thing I know of that can compare is when we criticize the peer review process at
FROB.)
In any case, thank you again for getting this material to us, Shades. As someone who is interested in the history of Mopologetics, I found this incredibly enlightening, and enjoyed it as a kind of "insider's view" into a world which is oftentimes quite secretive. Of course, it still does not change my view that DCP behaved unethically when he posted that material on the FAIRboard.
I will be extremely curious to read Rollo Tomasi's reaction to the above.
Edited to add: I think we need to further take into account the fact that DCP's oversaw/edited the
FARMS Review's response to Quinn's
Same-Dynamics among Nineteenth-Century Americans: A Mormon Example. When asked, Prof. P. will happily point to that work as the key example of why Quinn is an "embarrassment." He, like the authors of the
FROB article, has a low opinion of homosexuals, and believes that they always have "an agenda." (There were two articles, and the lengthier of the two is quite frank in its hostility towards gays.) I think we need to view his participation in the gossip with these views and attitudes (which he implicitly and editorially espouses) in mind.