DCP responds to the "gossipmongering" accusations

[_Blixa]

Buggerer? Please tell me you've just swooped in from some London coffee parlor! Paging Blackadder!

[_Blixa]

Sorry, that should have read "Please tell me you've just swooped in from some 18th century coffee parlor!"

[_harmony]

harmony:

That sounds remarkably like the rumor-mill our leaders are constantly reminding us to avoid.

“Our” leaders? That’s rich, coming from you! If I were your stake president, I’d have your apostate ass in a disciplinary court so fast it’d set records. And you’d never need to lie in a temple recommend interview again.

But you aren't, and you won't, and you can't. And isn't it ironic that the next time you go to the temple, you can look over at the sisters sitting there, and wonder which one is harmony. And even if you could, you wouldn't, because you wouldn't have grounds. And doesn't that stick in your craw? Indeed it does.

So when did the gossiping actually begin?

I knew Quinn was a buggerer no later than 1985.

And yet you were such an innocent bystander. Not in Daniel's circle of apologists at all, at least that's what you'd have us believe. So how would you know this? And how did you originally find out? And since the information wouldn't be officially public for another decade, you do realize that makes you part of the gossip, part of the rumor mill that just couldn't allow a man to be what he is, simply because that is different from what you are, don't you? That makes you a gossipmonger. How odd that you'd come here defending Daniel from a charge you yourself are guilty of.

It could have been earlier. I didn’t make any note of it in my journal at the time. He was just another pasty-faced would-be intellectual as far as I was concerned. It was several years later that I actually read any of his works of “history.”

Ah, so you were part of his circle. Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when once we seek to deceive. Why do you quote history? Are you maligning his professional life in addition to gossiping about his private life?

And as far as your “holier-than-thou” condemnation of what you call “gossiping” is concerned – take your deceitful, two-faced, afraid-to-show-your-true-colors, faux intellectualism and go back to your single-wide and fry something.

Tsk Tsk Tsk. And it just sticks in your craw that you can't call my SP doesn't it? And people wonder why Mormons are known to be so vindictive. Is Opie just another name for Plutarch?

And yet Quinn didn't publically come out until 1996. So essentially you agree that people were gossiping about him …

Yes. Everyone knew Mike Quinn was a buggerer for a decade or more before his oh-so-dramatic “coming out” party. Call it what you want, you shameless dissembler.

I'm not the one claiming to be part of the gossipy inner circle, Opie. That would be you. And if everyone knew for a decade prior to his coming out in 1996, why wasn't he ex'ed for it? Why wasn't he dismissed from his BYU teaching position for it? It is an excommunicatable offense, and it is a dismissable offense for faculty at BYU. Surely you aren't saying the church didn't know, when "everyone" else knew?

I didn't suppose you could write an entire paragraph without a gratuitous insult, and I was right.

You’re so very, very right. When in Rome …

Being right is what I do more often than not. More's the pity, in this case.

That's how the SCMC works, Opie. Didn't you know that?

Why don’t you explain it to us? You seem to know all about it. My only question is why they haven’t contacted your stake president and ridden you out of the chapel on a rail? As I said, if it were up to me, I’d purge the church of everyone like you and your friends here on this board. You’re all a bunch of phony cowards who don’t have the guts to stand up for what you really believe. At least people like Steve Benson can be credited for standing by their principles; putting on the full-fledged uniform of the apostate instead of skulking in the shadows of feigned belief. You wouldn’t see him lying through his teeth in a temple recommend interview just so he could attend a child’s wedding. You disgust me.

But it's not up to you. You are just a little cog, of no account, with no power, no stewardship, and no jurisdiction. And it bugs you so much, and it's so amusing to watch.

After all, Quinn had just slapped down Packer himself.

Quinn “slapped down” Elder Packer? You and Scratch live in such an ornate fantasy world. Quinn is a miserable wretch who is increasingly tormented by the prospect of coming face to face with his God. Boyd K. Packer is a holy man who will, not many years hence, face that same heavenly Father with self-confidence and joy. The only person Mike Quinn has “slapped down” in life is himself and those fools (like you and Mr. Scratch) who have been persuaded by his radical distortions of LDS history.

Quinn was a respected professor of LDS history when he wrote most of his books. Are you saying BYU was guilty of employing not just a homosexual, but a radical homosexual for all those years, when he was representing the Lord's university at conferences worldwide? That doesn't say much about their discernment, does it?

You make assumptions, Opie. Assumptions based on facts not in evidence.

No, harmony. I make valid judgments based on easily-observable facts. That’s how I know that you are an ugly-hearted, bitter old woman who blames God and the church (along with its leaders) for the tribulations of your life – tribulations incident to your own stupid decisions and failure to properly exercise your own agency. Mr. Scratch is a bitter young man who blames God and the church (along with its leaders) for the fact that he is an inconsequential and pathetic loser. And D. Michael Quinn is now an intellectually and spiritually shriveled old man who started out with great promise, only to sacrifice it all on the altar of depravity and excess.

Well, I'm glad you got that off your chest. No doubt you feel a lot lighter now. I certainly don't blame God or the church for my tribulations. I know exactly where they come from, and why. I blame myself for being foolish enough to believe a man who doesn't even know me would know anything about what was good for me. I am not so stupid now. Yes, even harmony can be taught.

And I’m through debasing myself further by stepping foot in this execrable forum frequented almost exclusively by people like you and Scratch who can no longer discern truth from error nor virtue from vice …

Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

[_Mister Scratch]

---1992??: Stake President Paul Hanks begins a disciplinary investigation (possibly at the behest of Elder Boyd K. Packer) into Quinn's personal life.

You don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about. I knew (and it was all-but-public knowledge) several years before 1992 that Quinn was gay, or at least bi-sexual. And neither I, nor anyone I knew who knew about Quinn, learned it from Pres. Hanks, who I am quite confident wasn’t even aware of it nearly as early as everyone else.

Which means, as I have said, that Hanks was told of this matter by some "stool pigeon" who had it in for Quinn. (Or, as I've noted above, it could have been the result of Quinn's purported "lover" confessing... Which is it, Opie?)

… DCP and Opie both say that Hanks was investigating Quinn's sex life …

I never said any such thing. Not only that, but I know that such was not the case. No one had any need to “investigate” anything. Quinn’s “private” life was hardly private at the time – there was no “investigation” necessary. This just once again proves that you’re a compulsive liar – a trait all too common among the apostate crowd.

I'm sorry, Opie, but that just doesn't square with the facts. According to the Lavina Fielding Anderson account, Hanks made multiple attempts to visit Quinn (possibly to interrogate him). Moreover, if "no one had any need to 'investigate' anything," then why was there all of this passing around of info---i.e., from Hanks, to DCP's friend, to DCP?

This again makes me think that Hanks was given marching orders from the top.

Now here is some authentic gossip mongering! And it’s founded in 100% baseless speculation.

No... You've got your definitions mixed up. I fully grant that this is speculative, but there is no "gossiping" going on here. I'm just doing my best to work with the facts I have.

You’re a complete imbecile, Mr. Scratch. You’re a rampant speculator who requires no knowledge whatsoever to make your outrageous assertions.

I really see them more as guesses than "assertions."

You’re completely out of control, and were it not for the fact that you have, on this board, a large number of fellow disgruntled ex-LDS who are willing to accept any conspiracy theory you can come up with, you would be laughed to scorn. What a tragic joke you are!

Well, to be honest, I *hope* that people laugh at some of the stuff I say.

… I wonder if the "former colleague" in question was our own "Opie Rockwell"---aka (perhaps) Bill Hamblin or Lou Midgley.

I am not nor have I ever been a “colleague” of Dan Peterson. Fact is, I am completely disassociated from the entire BYU/FARMS crowd.

Obviously you're not "completely" disassociated, otherwise you would not be here attacking me and defending DCP. By any chance is your name Kevin?

I’m sure Dan Peterson, Bill Hamblin, and Lou Midgely wouldn’t even know who I was if they passed me on the street. No, my dear Mr. Scratch, I’m simply a third party who just happened to live in the Salt Lake Stake at the time and was casually aware of some of these things going on. And if I knew about Mike Quinn then, I can assure you it was no secret.

Why don't you tell us how you knew, then?

You’re just so desperate for a club to beat your perceived enemies that you’ll resort to anything in your Ahab-esque quest to smite Mormonism. What a freakish little imp you are! I picture you, Gollum-like, hunkered over your computer in a darkened room, with pictures of your nemeses taped on the walls – darts protruding from their faces.

But keep it up. Your pathological pursuit will get you nowhere in the end, except further alienated from reality and the light you used to enjoy.

As I said before, I actually feel sorry for you. What a pathetic tragedy your life has become …

By any chance do you post using a different handle on the aptly named MADboard?

[_moksha]

Why don't you tell us how you knew, then?

You’re just so desperate for a club to beat your perceived enemies that you’ll resort to anything in your Ahab-esque quest to smite Mormonism. What a freakish little imp you are! I picture you, Gollum-like, hunkered over your computer in a darkened room, with pictures of your nemeses taped on the walls – darts protruding from their faces.

But keep it up. Your pathological pursuit will get you nowhere in the end, except further alienated from reality and the light you used to enjoy.

As I said before, I actually feel sorry for you. What a pathetic tragedy your life has become …

By any chance do you post using a different handle on the aptly named MADboard?

I think all of us wondered about that different handle as we read that. Opie seems like quite an angry person.

[_Ray A]

I really see them more as guesses than "assertions."

Do you think it appropriate to try to destroy someone's reputation on "guesses".

[_harmony]

I really see them more as guesses than "assertions."

Do you think it appropriate to try to destroy someone's reputation on "guesses".

Hyperbole. No one's reputation is in any danger.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Mike Quinn’s sexual orientation was widely known among people involved in Mormon studies (not merely, or even primarily, among “apologists” or faithful Church members) for many years prior to his official “coming out” in 1996.

Thanks to the rumor mill.

As I’ve noted before, I first heard that Quinn was gay when, with Todd Compton, sometime (I believe) between 1982 and 1985, I was visiting in the home of a person in southern California (where I then lived) who would be widely recognized as more sympathetic to Quinn’s theological and historical views than, say, to Bruce McConkie’s. This man was astonished that Todd and I were unaware of something that he thought was universally known.

Like Scratch, I immediately suspected this "person" to be LA-resident Bob Crockett, who has not been shy to claim that he personally witnessed Quinn's holding hands with one of his "mates" (Crockett's word) at an MHA conference in 1980 or 1981.

Unless I’m much mistaken, Quinn’s stake president had never met Quinn when my friend spoke with him, but he was already well aware of Quinn’s sexual orientation. (And, frankly, of more than merely his orientation. A sad incident within his stake had brought the matter very painfully to the stake president’s attention.)

This statement is very odd. Quinn moved into Paul Hanks's stake in the summer of 1992 (after being away from Utah for several years). Quinn was completely inactive after moving to SLC. Hanks first came to Quinn's apartment on February 7, 1993, and the visit and letter he gave Quinn that same day spoke to (1) Quinn's recent publication in Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism (Quinn had included an article about LDS women having a form of the priesthood in Nauvoo), and (2) recent comments made by Quinn in the press about the lack of academic freedom at BYU. Hanks made no allusion to Quinn's sexual orientation or other 'moral' issue until a May 11, 1993 letter, after several attempts by Hanks to discuss Quinn's historical writings. After this time, Hanks's efforts appeared to shift from Quinn's alleged apostasy to 'conduct unbecoming.' (Utlimately, Quinn was ex'ed for insubordination, due to his continued refusal to meet with local leaders).

Who told Hanks's about Quinn's homosexuality? I don't know. It could have been DCP's friend (although DCP doesn't seem to know one way or the other), it could have been a Gen'l Authority (both BKP and Loren Dunn had it out for Quinn by this time), or someone in Hanks's stake. I think Hanks knew he couldn't get Quinn on apostasy, so he moved on to an easier target in the homophobic LDS Church. They were going to get Quinn somehow, in order to destroy his credibility among LDS members. Whether it was apostasy or homosexuality, probably didn't matter.

And I don’t believe that it was my friend who raised the issue of Quinn’s homosexuality, nor even of Quinn in general. As I recall, it was the stake president, an old friend of his, who broached the subject. The visit was not about Quinn, but was simply an encounter between two long-time friends, and the topic of Mike Quinn emerged in passing.

A member's private sex life "emerged in passing" between the member's SP and a non-stake member? Gimme a break!

In the small and close-knit community of people involved in Mormon history or Mormon studies, a community containing both faithful believers and dissidents, there’s a lot of informal conversation. That’s how human communities work.

And this somehow excuses the ugly gossip about Quinn?

There was no rumor-mongering crusade, and I certainly wasn’t involved in one.

Call it whatever you want, but it was still ugly gossip behind a man's back about his sex life.

It’s deeply ironic for me to be accused as the impresario of a conspiracy to besmirch Mike Quinn, because, although I knew about his sexual orientation for 11-14 years before he openly acknowledged it, I consciously chose never to write or publish anything at all referring to it. I sat on it, quietly.

Well, not really "quietly." You did discuss it with others on several ocassions.

I’ve said this repeatedly. I can’t think of any clearer way than what I’ve already said to state that I was involved in no smear campaign against Mike Quinn and that, in fact, so far as I know, there was no smear campaign against Mike Quinn.

Sorry, but I'm just not buying it.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

This again makes me think that Hanks was given marching orders from the top.

Now here is some authentic gossip mongering! And it’s founded in 100% baseless speculation.

You’re a complete imbecile, Mr. Scratch. You’re a rampant speculator who requires no knowledge whatsoever to make your outrageous assertions. You’re completely out of control, and were it not for the fact that you have, on this board, a large number of fellow disgruntled ex-LDS who are willing to accept any conspiracy theory you can come up with, you would be laughed to scorn. What a tragic joke you are!

According to Quinn, Scratch is correct. Quinn has written that he was informed by a person present at Quinn's excommunication court that "the stake president acknowledged that for months he had been under pressure from Apostle Boyd K. Packer to excommunicate me." See Quinn, "Dilemmas of Feminists & Intellectuals in the Contemporary Church," Sunstone, pp. 67-73 & n.2 (June 1994).

[_Dr. Shades]

I guess the only question remaining is whether Boyd K. Packer told Stake President Hanks what, specifically, to excommunicate Quinn for, or whether Elder Packer let Hanks choose whatever charge he wanted.