Another view of Joseph's Polygamy

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_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

truth dancer wrote:I'm thinking that at some point in the future (OK, a century or so), there will come a time when the church will HAVE to acknowledge women as equal human beings or it will not continue.

I think what will happen is that... the leaders will go with the idea that originally, monogamy was canonized, official doctrine and the change to polygamy was just a temporary thing. Since it no longer is the law of the church the brethren will decide to remove it from the canon. The Book of Mormon clearly states that monogamy is the correct principle and God only required polygamy for a short time so it is time to remove it from scripture.... Or something like that.

And like all other changes, members will just go along with it since the prophet is the prophet, and the church is the one and only true one, and it is just more revelation, whatever.

:-(

~dancer~


I agree with you. I think that is exactly what will happen and members will actually believe it was inspired by God just as the ban being lifted was revelation to them. (despite the countless teachings against blacks)
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Brackite
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Re: Another view of Joseph's Polygamy

Post by _Brackite »

moksha wrote:Dale at the MAD board had this to say about Joseph Smith's polygamous relationships:

The fact is Joseph Smith was totally celibate with many of his wives during mortality. The claim's of children are unpersuasive at this point. I don't have the link to Van Hale's Mormon Miscellaneous radio show website, but he did a recent radio program that discusses the matter in-depth.

D.&C. 132:61 categorizes as adulturous relations with other men's wives. I found Todd Comptom's In Sacred Lonliness evidence for possible sexuality in these cases flawed. So I happen to view Joseph Smith's polyandrous sealings to be in the realm of agreements to or associations meant for worlds to come. The wording time and for eternity does not indicate that sexuality was present. Todd Comptom admitted himself that in all likelyhood Patty Sessions, and Helen Mar Kimball had a platonic mortal relationship with Joseph Smith.

All the women on the polyandrous list that included 11 women continued living as normal with the legal husbands. It's true that Josephine Fisher claimed her mother on her deathbed had told her she was the daughter of Joseph Smith. But her daughter may have mistook a spiritual adoption claim of the mother as a biological claim. DNA testing has been done to try and verify her claim for several years and it has not been established as a true claim. Ugo Perego told me via e-mail that he works on the eight rumored children of Joseph Smith via plural wives off and on inbetween other projects and wasn't able to publish any more research. Two on the list of eight rumors have been discredited by him as children of Joseph Smith.

According to D.&C. 132:19 couple's can have children in the afterlife. So a platonic mortal relationship would not prevent hypothetically the raising up rightious seed in the afterlife.

I don't see any more than some possible relations between Joseph Smith and the non-polyandrous side of the list of 33. Some relations with some of his plural wives is hardly much running around with 33 women. The lack of children even among rumors suggests to me Joseph Smith was quite moderate in his sexual habit's. He was not the beast towards women some make him out to be.


http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=24173&st=20


Hi There Moksha,

The Following is a Message that I Posted over on the '"FAIR"/Now The MA&D Message Board' pretty much a long time ago, about this kind of important issue:


The Only Person to have ever claimed to have been a
child of Joseph Smith was Josephine Lyon Fisher. They
are still doing DNA Research on the descendants of
Josephine Lyon Fisher and Hyrum and Joseph Smith to
try to determine if Josephine Lyon Fisher was indeed
Joseph Smith's biological daughter or not. Zebulon
Jacobs son of Henry Jacobs and Zina Hungtington, and
Moroni Pratt have been Proven Not to have been
Fathered by Joseph Smith through the DNA Research
which is No Big Surprise at all. Zebulon Jacobs and
Moroni Pratt have Never, Never, ever claimed to have
been biological children of Joseph Smith. Zebulon
Jacobs was conceived by Henry Jacobs and his wife
Zina, at least six months Before Joseph Smith got
Sealed to Zina Hungtington Jacobs. With Moroni Pratt's
Mom Mary Ann Frost, there is No evidence that Joseph
got Sealed to her a while he was alive. Not only is
Mary Ann Frost Not at all listed as one of the pretty
well Documented 33 Plural wives of Joseph Smith in
Todd Compton's Book, 'In Sacred Loneliness,' she is also
Not listed even as a Possible wife of Joseph Smith in
his Book. Mary Ann Frost Pratt did Not get Sealed to
Joseph Smith until after Joseph Smith got murdered at
Carthage Jail.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_moksha
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Re: Another view of Joseph's Polygamy

Post by _moksha »

Brackite wrote:Hi There Moksha,

The Following is a Message that I Posted over on the '"FAIR"/Now The MA&D Message Board' pretty much a long time ago, about this kind of important issue:

The Only Person to have ever claimed to have been a
child of Joseph Smith was Josephine Lyon Fisher. They
are still doing DNA Research on the descendants of
Josephine Lyon Fisher and Hyrum and Joseph Smith to
try to determine if Josephine Lyon Fisher was indeed
Joseph Smith's biological daughter or not. Zebulon
Jacobs son of Henry Jacobs and Zina Hungtington, and
Moroni Pratt have been Proven Not to have been
Fathered by Joseph Smith through the DNA Research
which is No Big Surprise at all. Zebulon Jacobs and
Moroni Pratt have Never, Never, ever claimed to have
been biological children of Joseph Smith. Zebulon
Jacobs was conceived by Henry Jacobs and his wife
Zina, at least six months Before Joseph Smith got
Sealed to Zina Hungtington Jacobs. With Moroni Pratt's
Mom Mary Ann Frost, there is No evidence that Joseph
got Sealed to her a while he was alive. Not only is
Mary Ann Frost Not at all listed as one of the pretty
well Documented 33 Plural wives of Joseph Smith in
Todd Compton's Book, 'In Sacred Loneliness,' she is also
Not listed even as a Possible wife of Joseph Smith in
his Book. Mary Ann Frost Pratt did Not get Sealed to
Joseph Smith until after Joseph Smith got murdered at
Carthage Jail.


Thanks Brackite. Have any of these results been confirmed by an independent laboratory? Wouldn't this question make an excellent study for the Discovery Channel show, the Mythbusters?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

moksha wrote:Dale specifically mentions Helen Mar Kimball. As part of the agreement with the Kimballs in exchange for their daughter, Joseph promised their family eternal salvation and exaltation (I have always wondered how many generations this extended to). However, in not sleeping with young Helen, did this queer the deal in any way with the Kimballs?


It could be Moksha, that this question delves too deeply into either Theology or Speculation (can these terms be used interchangeably?).
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Trinity
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Post by _Trinity »

The Nehor wrote:If Celestial Polyandry were introduced would that change your views?


Of the many reasons why I left the church, one was because I could not seem to get all excited over the goal of being chattel for eternity to some celestial godly-man and birthing billions of spirit children....his milion wives and billion children contributing to his "glory" while I was stuck in some dark shadow (i.e. Heavenly mother) being a nonentity. In fact, the celestial kingdom sounded much more like a hell than a heaven.

If I were able to equalize myself in that goal with polyandry, that would make it a bit more tempting. Not tempting enough for me to ignore the other reasons why I left the church however, such as the doctrinal inconsistencies, the revelatory mud and the extreme amount of work-based dictates that couldn't guarantee any positive effect to the quality of life.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
_Brackite
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Re: Another view of Joseph's Polygamy

Post by _Brackite »

moksha wrote:
Brackite wrote:...


Thanks Brackite. Have any of these results been confirmed by an independent laboratory? Wouldn't this question make an excellent study for the Discovery Channel show, the Mythbusters?
[/quote]


Hi There Moksha,

The Following important and interesting information is from one of the Web Site Page of wivesofjosephsmith.org:



THE CHILDREN OF JOSEPH SMITH AND DNA RESEARCH





Because Joseph Smith practiced polygamy in relative secrecy, the details of children he may have fathered by his plural wives is uncertain. In a 1905 speech at Brigham Young University, Joseph's wife, Mary Elizabeth Rollins explained, "I know he [Joseph] had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." ("Remarks", April 14, 1905, BYU Lee Library).

Josephine Lyon, daughter of Sylvia Sessions Lyon, wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”.

As with Josephine, these children were most likely borne by women who already had a husband when they married Joseph Smith, and may have been raised using the first husband’s surname. Still, questions remain regarding who these children may have been.

Today, DNA science may be providing answers. One method of doing this is by tracing a portion of the Y Chromosome, which remains essentially unchanged as it passes from father to son. By analyzing the DNA of a male descendant, the paternity of the ancestor can be determined.

Although Y Chromosome testing is extremely useful in cases involving unbroken paternal lineages, it cannot be used to identify alleged daughters, such as Josephine Lyon, that Joseph Smith may have fathered. To understand these cases, complex genetic testing involving autosomal DNA (the DNA found in the remaining chromosomes) is required.

Historians have previously identified eight possible children of Joseph Smith borne by his plural wives. DNA testing has shown that two of these eight children were not fathered by Joseph Smith. Two other children died as infants and therefore left no posterity. DNA testing is underway or remains a possiblity for the the remaining four. They are listed below, along with the traditionally recognized mother and father:

Josephine Lyon (Birth: February 8, 1844)
Mother: Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Father: Windsor Lyon

Oliver Buell (Birth: 1838 – 39)
Mother: Presendia Huntington Buell
Father: Norman Buell

Frank Henry Hyde (Birth: January 23, 1845, 1846?)
Mother: Marinda Johnson Hyde
Father: Orson Hyde

John Reed Hancock (Birth: April 19, 1841)
Mother: Clarissa Reed Hancock
Father: Levi Hancock

DIED AS INFANTS::

George Algernon Lightner (Birth: March 22, 1842)
Mother: Mary Rollins Lightner
Father: Adam Lightner

Orson Washington Hyde (Birth: November 9, 1843)
Mother: Marinda Johnson Hyde
Father: Orson Hyde

DNA TESTING COMPLETE:

Moroni Pratt (Birth: December 7, 1844)
Mother: Mary Ann Frost
Father: Parley P. Pratt (confirmed via DNA research)

Zebulon Jacobs (Birth: January 2, 1842)
Mother: Zina Huntington Jacobs
Father: Henry Jacobs (confirmed via DNA research)

NOTE: Presently, there is only anecdotal evidence that Clarissa Reed Hancock (Mother of John Reed Hancock) was a plural wife of Joseph Smith. DNA testing would shed further light in this regard. The year of Frank Henry Hyde's birth is uncertain. An 1846 birthdate would eliminate him as a possible child of Joseph Smith (See "The Orson Hyde Genealogy", Utah Genealogical Magazine and Historical, April 1913, pg 60 and "ISL", pg 535, fn 41).


( http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/DNA.htm )
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
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