Who Knows wrote:Ok. So what's the apologetic here? Was Joseph Smith not practicing REAL polygamy? And since he wasn't practicing REAL polygamy, then he couldn't have sex with the women?
Just trying to follow here.
No, the apologetic is that he was practicing nonsexual polygamy in establishing "loose dynastic ties" through these marriages (that phrase always makes me chuckle). It's only perverts like us exmos who think sex was involved.
Sorry, still not getting it.
Are there 2 different forms of polygamy?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
According to charity, the practice evolved, and Joseph didn't quite know how it was supposed to work. But hers seems to be the minority view. Sam Katich (I think that's the name) has his farcical piece on FAIR about the loose dynastic ties thing. He says that Joseph took a more eternal view of polygamy than his successors, so his focus was on being sealed to women for the eternities. He simply wasn't concerned with earthly sex. So, it's not so much a "different" form of polygamy but one with better perspective.
Essentially it boils down to not admitting that Joseph had sex with teenagers and married women.
The other apologetic view is that Joseph kind of bumbled about in his execution of the practice of polygamy. That his heart was in the right place but the details were a bit blurred. God was introducing the revelation in bits and pieces. It all worked out by the time Brigham came into place.
The bumblings were significant, however. Runtu is right. Joseph's bumblings would appear from any viewpoint (except for his own) to be adultery. He "married" Fanny Alger before God saw fit to reinstitute the Melchizidek priesthood sealing powers to Joseph and the church. And there is generally no excuse that can be made for polyandry. Or the deceit and secrecy with Emma. in my opinion, of course.
You'll notice no mention of dynastics in D&C 132. It's about seed, and countless posterity.
If I were an apologist (or I played one on TV), I'd state that overall the practice of polygamy in early church history served its purpose. As a fledgling young church these people were basically breeding so as not to become extinct. They sanctioned it under special revelation, buffering the practice from any questionable morality or ethics that may have been involved. Their multiplication bet paid off. The Mormon church survived in a climate that caused otherwise promising young churches to die off.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
It goes something like: Joseph Smith screwed up a bit here and there while he was implementing god's revelation on polygamy, but hey, at least he didn't screw up THAT bad - he didn't have sex with these other women.
Is that it?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Dale specifically mentions Helen Mar Kimball. As part of the agreement with the Kimballs in exchange for their daughter, Joseph promised their family eternal salvation and exaltation (I have always wondered how many generations this extended to). However, in not sleeping with young Helen, did this queer the deal in any way with the Kimballs?
didn't Emma at some point just tell him to do what he had to do, but she didn't want to know about it because she had such a hard time with the doctrine? Isnt that why there were those she was unaware of? In every case where they tried to have the plural wives live with them, Emma eventually wanted them out.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Something importanjt here is that dale is from an RLDS background and that's why he has such a hard time admitting that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:Something importanjt here is that dale is from an RLDS background and that's why he has such a hard time admitting that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.
Dale is former LDS, convert to RLDS. He is one of the nicer posters on MAD. Dale doesn't believe in the doctrine of polygamy and his admiration for Joseph Smith is typical of most LDS. He has an inner struggle though because if he doesn't like polygamy, he can't make that work with the image of his beloved Prophet. He doesn't have a problem with Joseph Smith practicing non sexual "spiritual polygamy." I find both offensive and cruel but I do see how someone could find it the lesser of 2 evils. While compiling his evidence that Joseph is innocent of the polygamy charges, he also is calling a lot of faithful LDS women liars that claimed to engage in sexual acitivity with the Prophet. "Brackite" has called him out on this a few times. There were many other women who were proposed to and rejected the principle that would also have to be liars going with Dale's belief.
Interestingly, he does believe an affair occured between Joseph and Fanny Alger but not a marriage. I am not sure if other RLDS also accept this piece of history as an affiar.
He has repeatedly discounted the testimonies of women who claimed they had sexual relations with Joseph Smith and refuses to put all of the pieces of history into context. I believe he may have mentioned the possibility that section 132 was tampered with by Brigham Young. He often cites the book "Joseph Smith fought Polygamy" that is listed on the RLDS website. That book only proves what a liar and deceiver Joseph was to the church members.
I have the book Joseph Smith III.-pragmatic Prophet. If it wasn't for his investigating into his father's past affairs, many of the women involved in secret Nauvoo polygamy would have remained silent on the sexual matters to their death. Joseph III was intent on proving his father was innocent of polygamy but ended up finding out some very troubling information that his mother had hidden from him.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
Trinity wrote:The other apologetic view is that Joseph kind of bumbled about in his execution of the practice of polygamy. That his heart was in the right place but the details were a bit blurred. God was introducing the revelation in bits and pieces. It all worked out by the time Brigham came into place.
...... And there is generally no excuse that can be made for polyandry. Or the deceit and secrecy with Emma. in my opinion, of course.
There is scirptural justification for Joseph Smith's SEXUAL pracitce of polyandry if you look closely at these verses in section 132:
41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed. 42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has acommitted adultery.
He does get a little slap on the wrist from "God" in this revelation for deceiving Emma, but then he goes and threatens her with damnation if she doesn't give him all the women he desires.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
According to charity, the practice evolved, and Joseph didn't quite know how it was supposed to work. But hers seems to be the minority view. Sam Katich (I think that's the name) has his farcical piece on FAIR about the loose dynastic ties thing. He says that Joseph took a more eternal view of polygamy than his successors, so his focus was on being sealed to women for the eternities. He simply wasn't concerned with earthly sex. So, it's not so much a "different" form of polygamy but one with better perspective.
Essentially it boils down to not admitting that Joseph had sex with teenagers and married women.
Anybody who believes these women were "off limits" to him sexually needs to read section 132 and the many statements made by the wives themselves. It wasn't proper for them to discuss sexual intercourse at that time but they leave plenty of other evidence in their writings that the relationship was not only "spiritual" in nature.
I posted some of the evidence left by the married wives in Liz's old polyandry thread.
I also believe he had sexual intercourse with Helen Mar Kimball based on her writings and that of her mother's heart wrenching account of the sacrifice Joseph had asked of their family. If these were only dynastic, why would it have been such an Abrahamic sacrifice for her parents to give their 14 year old daughter to the Prophet? Why did the women have to pray for confirmation to remove the repulsion at the proposal and practice of it? Why were they taught of the plurality of wives doctrine as restored to earth if these were only "Law of Adoption" sealings. (which would be similar to sealing children to parents)
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith