Homosexuals Honour Spong...

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_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
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Homosexuals Honour Spong...

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Pasted below is a news item, and Spong's comments on the event. Of special significance to me, and i think to the LDS Community, is the inclusion of "The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints" as one of the supporting churches of this event. If i read it correctly? I hope i did. (I've bolded it.)

If so it gives hope to another probable (inevitable?) move of LDSism to wrestle down another dark tradition of their history. Why not, eh?

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A message from the publisher:

We are pleased to announce that John Shelby Spong was honored last month in Pasadena, California, by being named the recipient of the thirtieth annual Lazarus Award. This national award is presented to that person who, in the judgment of the Board of the Lazarus Project, has done the most to break down the barriers of prejudice in our nation and to advance the cause of justice for the marginalized people in our society. The award was presented at a banquet held in the auditorium of the Pasadena Presbyterian Church.

The commendatory plaque carries the following citation:

"Presented to John Shelby Spong in grateful appreciation for your prophetic ministry to those who have been rejected or are on the margins in both church and society. Your preaching and teaching, writing and other efforts especially on behalf of the lesbian, gay, bi-sexual and transgender communities have immeasurably strengthened the voices for justice and inclusion and have given to all of us the courage to continue this struggle."

We at Waterfront Media congratulate Bishop Spong on his award, and are pleased to share the news of it with subscribers to A New Christianity for a New World.


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May 16, 2007

A Weekend in Minneapolis with the Twin Cities Gay Men's Chorus

"I'm not afraid of your Yahweh, I'm not afraid of your Allah, I'm not afraid of your Jesus, But I am afraid of what you do in the name of your God"

These were the words of one of the pieces of music featured recently in a concert in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It was for me part of an unusual and expanding weekend in that state of ten thousand lakes, walleyed pike, wild rice and a state university which calls itself "The Golden Gophers." I had been invited to lead a conference sponsored by the Twin Cities Gay Men's Chorus of Minneapolis and St. Paul. The conference, held from 1:00 p.m. until 5 p.m. on a Saturday afternoon, began with the keynote address that I delivered. It then broke into a series of workshops on such topics as "From Rejection to Inclusion," "Faces of Leadership," "Responding to the Conservative Message" and "Success Stories and Risky Justice."

One purpose of this conference was to celebrate and to acknowledge the 150 churches in the Twin Cities area that proclaim themselves to be "open and affirming congregations," which means churches where gay and lesbian people can be assured of a warm, safe and genuine welcome, a place to which they can come, as the evangelical hymn proclaims, "Just as I Am!" and where no one will use the Bible to justify prejudice, emotional abuse or rejection.

This Saturday conference was sandwiched between two public concerts on Friday and Saturday evenings presented by this world renowned Gay Men's Chorus, as part of a regular schedule of sacred, secular, classical and popular music which they perform each year to sell out crowds. The entire weekend took place in the Ted Mann Concert Hall of the University of Minnesota, a facility seating well over 1000 people.

Each of these public concerts is carefully orchestrated by the genial, popular and talented conductor, Dr. Stan Hill, who is himself a remarkable and gifted performer. His mission is to educate the world about those who are "his" people. There is no debate in Dr. Hill's mind about homosexuality being a given, not a chosen way of life. "I was a gay fetus," he announced. In the format of this particular concert he wove into his music video clips of various Christian clergy speaking in hostile language about how deeply God hates homosexuality. It was clear that "God" was little more than a euphemism for these clergypersons' own hatred. One of the more virulent clips was of the Rev. Fred Phelps, a Baptist minister from Topeka, Kansas, whose website is www.godhatesfags.com Seething with hostility, he urged the use of rusty barbed wire to castrate gay men, even calling their public executions "the will of God." The justification for his hatred he found in the book of Leviticus. I have encountered Fred Phelps before when he has picketed places where I was lecturing. He is a thoroughly unpleasant, hostile man who even uses his grandchildren to carry his hate-filled banners. I cringe at the realization that he calls himself a Christian. At the General Convention of the Episcopal Church in 1998 in Philadelphia, this man honored me highly by parading placards that proclaimed "Spong and Tutu are fag lovers!" I had a friend photograph that picketing sign and included it in the photo section of my autobiography, "Here I Stand." Perhaps Fred Phelps does not realize that I consider it a privilege to be linked with my good friend Desmond Tutu in any cause.

The entire audience had to see these brief breathtakingly cruel electronic clips during this concert, but they were then immediately countered by a series of clergy reading a few lines from the sacred scriptures about the God of love, who embraces all that God has made and whose welcome is not compromised by either human ignorance or bigotry. When my turn came to read in this moving concert, I chose words from Micah: "What does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God," followed by words from the first Epistle of John: "God is love and whoever abides in love abides in God." I concluded with Jesus' universal invitation, recorded in Matthew: "Come unto me all ye." "All ye," I noted, not "some of ye!" The other clergy readers were from Congregational, Unity, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Unitarian, United Church of Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints churches. Non-scriptural sources were also read but all carried the same basic message. The contrast between the video clips of hatred and these scriptural readings about love and inclusion was telling. We became newly aware of just how many dreadful offenses have been committed by religious people in the name of their God. Regular victims throughout history have been Jews, heretics, "infidels," scientists, people of color, women and homosexual persons


I know the LDS Church does not show open hostility or hatred towards G & L individuals. It does however limit their church participation, and in so doing lends license to homophobic LDS straights. Many/some(?) of whom are far from accepting Gs & Ls as equal worthies in society.

Might this be the dawning of a "New LDS Day"? Priesthood for ALL males? Full participation of ALL members in ALL callings? Thoughts???? Warm regards, Roger
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Not likely in my opinion. I see no problems with it EXCEPT that it would require that we rip apart the theological underpinnings of exaltation and require a massive overhaul on our understanding of gender.

In theory I guess you could legitimize homosexual civil marriages for time but I don't think that will go anywhere as it cuts someone off from exaltation. But then, so does marrying a non-member and we don't discipline anyone for that.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

The LDS church could easily create a church of equality if the brethren wanted.

One puts the sexism, homophobia, racism behind, gets a new revelation, and moves on.

A few nicely worded statements and the church is good to go...

We weren't ready to have women considered equal,
We weren't ready to have gay and lesbian people a part of the community,
We don't know why God's timing is as it is,
God's ways are not Human's ways,
God never said there would not be a time when all are embraced and treated equally,
We are a church of further light and knowledge,
We praise God for changing the out-dated rules,
We rejoice in the restoration of all things,
Etc. etc. etc.

It will happen... about fifty years after mainstream society!

:-)

~dancer~

Nice post Roger~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Post by _The Nehor »

truth dancer wrote:The LDS church could easily create a church of equality if the brethren wanted.

One puts the sexism, homophobia, racism behind, gets a new revelation, and moves on.

A few nicely worded statements and the church is good to go...

We weren't ready to have women considered equal,
We weren't ready to have gay and lesbian people a part of the community,
We don't know why God's timing is as it is,
God's ways are not Human's ways,
God never said there would not be a time when all are embraced and treated equally,
We are a church of further light and knowledge,
We praise God for changing the out-dated rules,
We rejoice in the restoration of all things,
Etc. etc. etc.

It will happen... about fifty years after mainstream society!

:-)

~dancer~

Nice post Roger~


You're talking about destroying what I consider to be one of the key beliefs of the LDS faith. Utah gave women the vote early. Lorenzo Snow in 1900 said that he wasn't sure if the Priesthood ban was revelation or tradition. Those changes would have nothing on this one.

Some changes I can see happening and in fact expect:

Women getting the Priesthood
The Return of a form of Consecration

Neither of these would change the underlying theology.

Moving Eternal Marriage out of place and denying the attached principles will make me walk unless an angel comes down and confirms this and explains a lot of things. Even then I will stick out my hand and say, "Put her there pal."
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

The Nehor wrote:
truth dancer wrote:The LDS church could easily create a church of equality if the brethren wanted.

One puts the sexism, homophobia, racism behind, gets a new revelation, and moves on.

A few nicely worded statements and the church is good to go...

We weren't ready to have women considered equal,
We weren't ready to have gay and lesbian people a part of the community,
We don't know why God's timing is as it is,
God's ways are not Human's ways,
God never said there would not be a time when all are embraced and treated equally,
We are a church of further light and knowledge,
We praise God for changing the out-dated rules,
We rejoice in the restoration of all things,
Etc. etc. etc.

It will happen... about fifty years after mainstream society!

:-)

~dancer~

Nice post Roger~


You're talking about destroying what I consider to be one of the key beliefs of the LDS faith. Utah gave women the vote early. Lorenzo Snow in 1900 said that he wasn't sure if the Priesthood ban was revelation or tradition. Those changes would have nothing on this one.

Some changes I can see happening and in fact expect:

Women getting the Priesthood
The Return of a form of Consecration

Neither of these would change the underlying theology.

Moving Eternal Marriage out of place and denying the attached principles will make me walk unless an angel comes down and confirms this and explains a lot of things. Even then I will stick out my hand and say, "Put her there pal."


Or, you could take Jesus at his word when he says "the kingdom of God is within you" and not need fear-based beliefs at all.

If there was an LDS at that concert, I'll bet he/she was a renegade and didn't have the consent of leadership.
_The Nehor
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Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Post by _The Nehor »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
truth dancer wrote:The LDS church could easily create a church of equality if the brethren wanted.

One puts the sexism, homophobia, racism behind, gets a new revelation, and moves on.

A few nicely worded statements and the church is good to go...

We weren't ready to have women considered equal,
We weren't ready to have gay and lesbian people a part of the community,
We don't know why God's timing is as it is,
God's ways are not Human's ways,
God never said there would not be a time when all are embraced and treated equally,
We are a church of further light and knowledge,
We praise God for changing the out-dated rules,
We rejoice in the restoration of all things,
Etc. etc. etc.

It will happen... about fifty years after mainstream society!

:-)

~dancer~

Nice post Roger~


You're talking about destroying what I consider to be one of the key beliefs of the LDS faith. Utah gave women the vote early. Lorenzo Snow in 1900 said that he wasn't sure if the Priesthood ban was revelation or tradition. Those changes would have nothing on this one.

Some changes I can see happening and in fact expect:

Women getting the Priesthood
The Return of a form of Consecration

Neither of these would change the underlying theology.

Moving Eternal Marriage out of place and denying the attached principles will make me walk unless an angel comes down and confirms this and explains a lot of things. Even then I will stick out my hand and say, "Put her there pal."


Or, you could take Jesus at his word when he says "the kingdom of God is within you" and not need fear-based beliefs at all.

If there was an LDS at that concert, I'll bet he/she was a renegade and didn't have the consent of leadership.


What?

Where did I imply I was afraid?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

It will never happen. And the reason why it will never happen is, Nehor notwithstanding, the Brethren would never admit that they were wrong.
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

harmony wrote:It will never happen. And the reason why it will never happen is, Nehor notwithstanding, the Brethren would never admit that they were wrong.


I disagree, harmony. Not that I think that this will change, but I disagree with the reason it won't that you cited. There is plenty of "spoke as a man, not as a prophet" and "we're not changing or admitting we're wrong, we're a church of continuing revelation" double-speak to cover just about any situation.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

harmony wrote:It will never happen. And the reason why it will never happen is, Nehor notwithstanding, the Brethren would never admit that they were wrong.


It is ironically wrong to steroetype Church leaders that way. Will you admit it? If not, then aren't you projecting? ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

harmony wrote:It will never happen. And the reason why it will never happen is, Nehor notwithstanding, the Brethren would never admit that they were wrong.


McKonkie did.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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