A reality check for all the Kevin Graham haters out there

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_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

A reality check for all the Kevin Graham haters out there

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Dear MA&D moderators and MA&D sympathizers:

Allow me to tell you a true story about something that happened a few years ago.

On the now all-but-defunct Zion's Lighthouse Message Board, a discussion took place about the LDS church's membership statistical-tallying practices. I have a website about this, which you can read here.

Part of my assumption was that "increase in children of record" referred to 8-year olds being baptized. Along with other people, Kevin Graham asserted that this was not so, that "children of record" referred to babies being blessed in Sacrament Meeting.

We argued back and forth about this. Now, if Kevin was correct, then a lot of the wind would be taken out of my sails and my criticism of the church would be blunted considerably (because the stats wouldn't look so fudged). So we argued head-to-head for several posts.

Eventually, Kevin made a phone call to the Church Office Building and spoke to the Member Records Department. They confirmed that he was correct (and that, by implication, I was incorrect), and that "children of record" did indeed refer to children being blessed in Sacrament Meeting.

I started to defend myself, but I took a deep breath and realized how stupid I was beginning to sound. There was nothing else I could do: I had no choice but to eat crow, lick my wounds, then slink off with my tail between my legs. I also had to completely revamp my website to deal with the information he had uncovered.

NOW, READ CAREFULLY: How many people do you think accused Kevin of "stirring the pot" for making that phone call? How many people do you think accused Kevin of "hiding the contents of that phone call" after making a critic (me) look like a fool? How many people do you think accused Kevin of trying to slander or otherwise destroy the reputation of a critic (me) for making that phone call? How many people do you think accused Kevin of lying about the contents of that phone call?

That's right. ZIP. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. NONE. Not even I did.

Thus we see that Kevin didn't wake up one morning and decide to stick it to some apologist. Thus we see that for several years now he's had no problems with making phone calls or sending e-mails in order to verify some point of contention or other. Thus we see that this whole Gee/Ritner thing isn't just some isolated incident.

Thus we also see that if you have no problem with Kevin making a critic look bad, then it's the height of hypocrisy to all of a sudden do an about-face and cry foul when Kevin makes an apologist look bad.

Now take that back to MA&D, why don't you?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Runtu
_Emeritus
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Post by _Runtu »

I find myself wondering why Kevin is so hated. Sure, he can be a bit abrasive, but I like Kevin. I don't see the dishonest backstabber that he's portrayed as. For my money, none of this would have happened had Dr. Peterson not hinted that he knew "the real story," which he clearly didn't.

Other than that, this whole things seems a lot of nothing.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Livingstone22
_Emeritus
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Post by _Livingstone22 »

I'm sorry. I don't know who Kevin Graham is or what he did that makes him so hated? Perhaps you could shed a little more light on this incident?

by the way, thank you so much for bringing this concern of how many memberships the church actually had. I have been looking for that link for so long on several message boards. Is not the topic here at hand that the LDS church doesn't have as many members as it claims (being that "members of record" are just babies being blessed, but not baptized when they turn 8)? And is that not (being a critic of the church), your position? Or am I thinking of a different topic? Please correct me; I'm having trouble grasping what's being talked about. Thanks, Livingstone.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Shades,

I saw this post earlier and I understand what you're getting at, but I still don't understand what was accomplished by these recent events. Can you fill in the blanks for me? Dumb it down if you need to in order to get it through my thick head.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Jersey Girl wrote:Shades,

I saw this post earlier and I understand what you're getting at, but I still don't understand what was accomplished by these recent events. Can you fill in the blanks for me? Dumb it down if you need to in order to get it through my thick head.

Jersey Girl


JG---

It is like so many other aspects of Mopologetics. What we have here is a group of people who declare themselves to be God's Warriors on Earth, Sanctioned Fully by Jesus Christ to Go Forth and Exterminate the Heathens. These are people who declare themselves to be fully draped in all the moral authority of Christ himself. The big question therefore is, Are these people truly and honestly behaving in a Christlike fashion?
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
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Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Mister Scratch wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Shades,

I saw this post earlier and I understand what you're getting at, but I still don't understand what was accomplished by these recent events. Can you fill in the blanks for me? Dumb it down if you need to in order to get it through my thick head.

Jersey Girl


JG---

It is like so many other aspects of Mopologetics. What we have here is a group of people who declare themselves to be God's Warriors on Earth, Sanctioned Fully by Jesus Christ to Go Forth and Exterminate the Heathens. These are people who declare themselves to be fully draped in all the moral authority of Christ himself. The big question therefore is, Are these people truly and honestly behaving in a Christlike fashion?


Yes, but that doesn't answer my question.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Was the main objective to demonstrate that DCP and Gee lied about the circumstances regarding Ritner's bowing out of the dissertation comittee? (Don't correct my spelling, Shades...it's way too late!)
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Shades,

I saw this post earlier and I understand what you're getting at, but I still don't understand what was accomplished by these recent events. Can you fill in the blanks for me? Dumb it down if you need to in order to get it through my thick head.

Jersey Girl


JG---

It is like so many other aspects of Mopologetics. What we have here is a group of people who declare themselves to be God's Warriors on Earth, Sanctioned Fully by Jesus Christ to Go Forth and Exterminate the Heathens. These are people who declare themselves to be fully draped in all the moral authority of Christ himself. The big question therefore is, Are these people truly and honestly behaving in a Christlike fashion?


Yes, but that doesn't answer my question.


Your question, as I understand it, is, "What was accomplished here?" I would say that we have seen further evidence of the way that Mopologists behave; the extremes they will go to (or the depths they will plumb). *THAT* is what has been achieved. Also, incidentally, I believe that an innocent man's reputation has been defended as well.
_ajax18
_Emeritus
Posts: 6914
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:56 am

Post by _ajax18 »

I don't understand how anyone couldn't like Kevin Graham unless this person had a hidden agenda that didn't involve the truth, of course that seems to be most people on both sides of this argument, so it really shouldn't surprise me.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
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Post by _dartagnan »

I never understood what the big deal was about me emailing Ritner. I have always emailed scholars to verify the manner in which some people were using them. If you read my response to JP Holding you'll find references to about four or five email responses from scholars he had used in his book. Greek experts like Winbery, Trobisch and Hebrew experts like Kenneth Mathews, all responded graciously to my request. Why read their book and assume you're interpreting them properly when you can email them directly and be certain?

This was always something I had been applauded for when I was a TBM apologist. Now I am lambasted for doing it when it doesn't work out so well for other apologists.

Their reaction is very different from the anti-Mormons. For example, JP Holding never once accused me of hiding information from my emails. He accepted it, took the hit, and adjusted his argument accordingly. Compare this to the likes of Juliann and Bokovoy, who, when presented correspondence they don't like, immediately assume foul play, accuse me of posting information without permission, accuse me of lying, accuse me of hiding my email, which, if presented, would somehow mitigate the information provided in Ritner's.

Further, this idea of being hated has never really been an issue for me until I became a "turncoat." I was never hated by the critics but it is clear I am hated by the apologists. There were plenty of critics in the past who thought I was a jackass of jackasses while posting as an apologist (I went by "Kevinator" because Barry Bickmore called me that as a compliment) but they never accused me of the things I have been accused of recently.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
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