John Dehlin spanks Mitt on Good Morning America!

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

As for the Polygamy well I agree with him and many Mormons do as well.


Then why are you (and these others) still in the church? I know, as far as you're concerned, it's not because of a lack of understanding of the principles and importance of polygamy. I can't speak for the others (although I think it's highly likely that mitt understands it).


There are many reasons why I stay LDS, among them is the fact that I actually enjoy it. I am not one though that holds fast to an all or nothing and of course some more staunch then me here call me a hypocrite for it. I think polygamy was a mistake and was not of God. Why Smith did it is very complex to me and I do not have all the answers. No religion has all truth or is 100% right or wrong. But I do believe the LDS Church is as God sanctioned as any other religion on the earth and for not that is fine and good enough for me.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:
(and that goes for you, too, Mrs. Clinton, taking huge bucks from the health insurance industry. Since I called two males whores, I get to call her one, too, without being accused of sexism, right?)


Yes
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Jason Bourne wrote:There are many reasons why I stay LDS, among them is the fact that I actually enjoy it. I am not one though that holds fast to an all or nothing and of course some more staunch then me here call me a hypocrite for it. I think polygamy was a mistake and was not of God. Why Smith did it is very complex to me and I do not have all the answers. No religion has all truth or is 100% right or wrong. But I do believe the LDS Church is as God sanctioned as any other religion on the earth and for not that is fine and good enough for me.


Fair enough. Though I don't understand how you 'enjoy it' - I'm not sure I ever did. For me, it was more like "well, this is what god wants me to be doing, this is how i can live with my family forever", etc. I viewed it more like a trial of sorts.

But as long as you enjoy it, I guess that's all that matters.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I know my devout and very active LDS parents and sister's family would NEVER vote for Mitt. Religion doesn't trump all. They detest what recent republican policies have done to this country under the Bush admin, and Jesus Christ Himself could run as a republican right now, and they would probably not vote for him.

(well, maybe they'd go for Jesus Christ, but nobody lower in rank ;)

And the reason I would never vote for Mitt, other than the fact outlined above, is that he, like John McCain, has shown himself to be a political whore.

I know our system tends to create whores, but please refrain from rubbing our noses in it.

(and that goes for you, too, Mrs. Clinton, taking huge bucks from the health insurance industry. Since I called two males whores, I get to call her one, too, without being accused of sexism, right?)



Which leaves you all of the other political whores in the field, including Saint Hillary, a dangerous autocratic ideologue, John Edwards, a dangerous bottom feeding tort attorney who made his entire fortune litigating junk science medical malpractices suits, and Barak Obama, an ultra social and economic liberal who could ride, from the Democratic perspective, into the White House on skin color alone.

Bush's domestic policies have been atrocious indeed, including the largest expansions of the welfare state since the Great Society, the prescription drug benefit, a vacuous immigration policy (which he shares with the Democrats and much of the rest of his party's leadership (or, in other words, a number of massive unfunded mandates to be taken care of by future generations)), an abysmal education bill, the complete lack of any reformation of Medicate and Social Security, and some other failures, including a lack of real relentlessness in pursuing the War on global Jihadism and the failure to rebuild the military (our present military is dangerously tiny with respect to the actual present threats to the United States and its allies, and much of our vaunted equipment, despite its obvious effectiveness, is obsolete and old) to an adequate degree. His tax cuts have been welcome and effective, but not nearly drastic enough. Bush has been a mixed bag between the domestic and foreign spheres (as was Clinton), but we could have done far worse. Al Gore is an extremely dangerous fanatic who's personal moral sloppiness is only outdone be his determined ignorance much of that of which he speaks.

His preserverance on the fiction of embryonic stem cell research, which is another ideological hobby horse of the Left masking an ulterior agenda, has been excellent.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Polygamy Porter
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Post by _Polygamy Porter »

Jason Bourne wrote:
As for the Polygamy well I agree with him and many Mormons do as well.


Then why are you (and these others) still in the church? I know, as far as you're concerned, it's not because of a lack of understanding of the principles and importance of polygamy. I can't speak for the others (although I think it's highly likely that mitt understands it).


There are many reasons why I stay LDS, among them is the fact that I actually enjoy it. I am not one though that holds fast to an all or nothing and of course some more staunch then me here call me a hypocrite for it. I think polygamy was a mistake and was not of God. Why Smith did it is very complex to me and I do not have all the answers. No religion has all truth or is 100% right or wrong. But I do believe the LDS Church is as God sanctioned as any other religion on the earth and for not that is fine and good enough for me.
So then if lds is just another religion to you then why defend any of it?

You say you think polyg was a mistake... hello? did you tossout everything attached to that mistake also? Like the temple?
_Polygamy Porter
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Post by _Polygamy Porter »

posting from treo 700p does not work so well...
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

So then if lds is just another religion to you then why defend any of it?

You say you think polyg was a mistake... hello? did you tossout everything attached to that mistake also? Like the temple?



As much as I really hate to admit it, PP has Jason on this one, petard and all. Polygamy cannot be surgically removed from the entire corpus of Gospel teaching without maiming other core principles, such as some of the central purposes of eternal marriage (eternal increase), the principle of continuing revelation, and the fact that polygamy was clearly a divinely sanctioned practice among Old Testament prophets and patriarchs whom the Lord considered as righteous and upright in his estimation as any other. At least, that's what the Old Testament texts themselves indicate.

The fact that we, in our particular cultural condition, cannot accept polygamy at all, even if commanded of the Lord and done in his way, is simply a statement about us culturally, not about what the truth of the matter may or may not be. None of the Brethren, either singly or collectively, have ever renounced or overturned the core concept, or that it was divine in origin as it existed among the early Saints. Indeed, Polygamy is inherent within the concept of sealing. Any man who marries again, after a first wife has passed on, and marries someone who has not previously been married, will by default, if covenants are kept by both, inherit both of these wives in eternity, as both have been sealed for time and eternity through the power of the Priesthood. The sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise makes all these bonds valid for eternity. There are any number of LDS men who will have plural wives in eternity, according to Gospel doctrine, even though they never practiced it in mortality.

The idea that polygamy was a mistake simply won't hold water. Although the practice was ended, the principle has never been altered as a core concept. Indeed, if you don't accept at least the possibility of legitimate plural marriage, you cannot, with any degree of philosophical rigor, accept the concept of sealing per se. The two are interconnected in such a way that, while we may never practice plural marriage while in this life, the concept of sealing and eternal family simply precludes plural marriage from being a possibility, or even a requirement for some.

I wonder how many of us would be willing to engage in animal sacrifice on a regular basis?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Cogg - do you object to Jason going to church because he enjoys it - not necessarily because he believes it?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

beastie wrote:I know my devout and very active LDS parents and sister's family would NEVER vote for Mitt. Religion doesn't trump all. They detest what recent republican policies have done to this country under the Bush admin, and Jesus Christ Himself could run as a republican right now, and they would probably not vote for him.

(well, maybe they'd go for Jesus Christ, but nobody lower in rank ;)

And the reason I would never vote for Mitt, other than the fact outlined above, is that he, like John McCain, has shown himself to be a political whore.

I know our system tends to create whores, but please refrain from rubbing our noses in it.

(and that goes for you, too, Mrs. Clinton, taking huge bucks from the health insurance industry. Since I called two males whores, I get to call her one, too, without being accused of sexism, right?)


To add to what you're saying Beastie, I find it incredibly interesting that although we live under a democratic republic government, the government doesn't offer financial transparency. I was shocked to learn that of the 3 to 4 hundred congressmen in the House and Senate, only around 40 were willing to tell the press what money projects they were asking for from the government. The fact that the taxpayers are not permitted acess to this information seems very wrong to me.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

Coggins7 wrote:
So then if lds is just another religion to you then why defend any of it?

You say you think polyg was a mistake... hello? did you tossout everything attached to that mistake also? Like the temple?



As much as I really hate to admit it, PP has Jason on this one, petard and all. Polygamy cannot be surgically removed from the entire corpus of Gospel teaching without maiming other core principles, such as some of the central purposes of eternal marriage (eternal increase), the principle of continuing revelation, and the fact that polygamy was clearly a divinely sanctioned practice among Old Testament prophets and patriarchs whom the Lord considered as righteous and upright in his estimation as any other. At least, that's what the Old Testament texts themselves indicate.

The fact that we, in our particular cultural condition, cannot accept polygamy at all, even if commanded of the Lord and done in his way, is simply a statement about us culturally, not about what the truth of the matter may or may not be. None of the Brethren, either singly or collectively, have ever renounced or overturned the core concept, or that it was divine in origin as it existed among the early Saints. Indeed, Polygamy is inherent within the concept of sealing. Any man who marries again, after a first wife has passed on, and marries someone who has not previously been married, will by default, if covenants are kept by both, inherit both of these wives in eternity, as both have been sealed for time and eternity through the power of the Priesthood. The sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise makes all these bonds valid for eternity. There are any number of LDS men who will have plural wives in eternity, according to Gospel doctrine, even though they never practiced it in mortality.

The idea that polygamy was a mistake simply won't hold water. Although the practice was ended, the principle has never been altered as a core concept. Indeed, if you don't accept at least the possibility of legitimate plural marriage, you cannot, with any degree of philosophical rigor, accept the concept of sealing per se. The two are interconnected in such a way that, while we may never practice plural marriage while in this life, the concept of sealing and eternal family simply precludes plural marriage from being a possibility, or even a requirement for some.

I wonder how many of us would be willing to engage in animal sacrifice on a regular basis?


Damn! Just when I thought I would never agree with anything Coggins might post on this board, he throws up this jewel.

And he is completely right, (as I see it). Believe in it wholeheartedly, or throw out some very core Mormon doctrine.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
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