Apologists wasting their talent

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_A Light in the Darkness
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Apologists wasting their talent

Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

I often hear a lament on this board from those hostile to LDS apologists that they are very smart people and it is a shame they have wasted their talent on a failed project. While I obviously disagree with both the content and the condescending tone of the sentiment, I can at least understand the idea. After all, there are instances of wasted talent. Yet, I also know this lament is often expressed by atheists like Tarski and Beastie. This is rather curious. Philosophy Professor Francis Beckwith explains why when confronting a lament from atheist biologist Richard Dawkins that has an all too familiar ring to it:

In his 2006 book, The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins laments the career path of Kurt Wise, who has, since 2006, held the positions of professor of science and theology and director of the Center for Theology and Science at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. Prior to that, Wise had taught for many years at Bryan College, a small evangelical college in Dayton, Tennessee, named after William Jennings Bryan, three-time Democratic presidential candidate and associate counsel in the 1925 Scopes “Monkey Trial.”

According to Dawkins, Wise was at one time a promising young scholar who had earned a degree in geology (from the University of Chicago) and advanced degrees in geology and paleontology from Harvard University, where he studied under the highly acclaimed Stephen Jay Gould. Wise is also a young-earth creationist, which means that he accepts a literal interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis and maintains that the earth is less than ten thousand years old. It is not a position I hold, and for that reason I am sympathetic to Dawkins’ bewilderment at why Wise has embraced what appears to many Christians to be a false choice between one controversial interpretation of Scripture (young-earth creationism) and abandoning Christianity altogether.

At one point in his career, Wise began to understand that his reading of Scripture was inconsistent with the dominant scientific understanding of the age of the earth and the cosmos. Instead of abandoning what I believe is a false choice, he continued to embrace it, but this lead to a crisis of faith. Wise writes: “Either the Scripture was true and evolution was wrong or evolution was true and I must toss out the Bible. . . . It was there that night that I accepted the Word of God and rejected all that would ever counter it, including evolution. With that, in great sorrow, I tossed into the fire all my dreams and hopes in science.” So Wise abandoned the possibility of securing a professorship at a prestigious research university or institute.

Dawkins is disturbed by Wise’s judgment and its repercussions on his obvious promise as a scholar, researcher, and teacher. Writes Dawkins: “I find that terribly sad . . . the Kurt Wise story is just plain pathetic—pathetic and contemptible. The wound, to his career and his life’s happiness, was self-inflicted, so unnecessary, so easy to escape. . . . I am hostile to religion because of what it did to Kurt Wise. And if it did that to a Harvard educated geologist, just think what it can do to others less gifted and less well armed.”

Of course, some Christians may be just as troubled as Dawkins. So one need not be an atheist to raise legitimate questions about Professor’s Wise’s intellectual and spiritual journey. But, given Dawkins’ atheism, there is something odd about his lament, for it seems to require that Dawkins accept something about the nature of human beings and the natural moral law that his atheism seems to reject.

Let me explain what I mean. Dawkins harshly criticizes Wise for embracing a religious belief that results in Wise’s not treating himself and his talents, intelligence, and abilities in a way appropriate for their full flourishing. That is, given the opportunity to hone and nurture certain gifts—for example, intellectual skill—no one, including Wise, should waste them as a result of accepting a false belief. The person who violates, or helps violate, this norm, according to Dawkins, should be condemned, and we should all bemoan this tragic moral neglect on the part of our fellow(s). But the issuing of that judgment on Wise by Dawkins makes sense only in light of Wise’s particular talents and the sort of being Wise is by nature, a being who Dawkins seems to believe possesses certain intrinsic capacities and purposes, the premature disruption of which would be an injustice.

So the human being who wastes his talents is one who does not respect his natural gifts or the basic capacities whose maturation and proper employment make possible the flourishing of many goods. In other words, the notion of “proper function,” as Alvin Plantinga puts it, coupled with the observation that certain perfections grounded in basic capacities have been impermissibly obstructed from maturing, is assumed in the very judgment Dawkins makes about Wise and the way by which Wise should treat himself.

But Dawkins, in fact, does not actually believe that living beings, including human beings, have intrinsic purposes or are designed so that one may conclude that violating one’s proper function amounts to a violation of one’s moral duty to oneself. Dawkins has maintained for decades that the natural world only appears to be designed. He writes in The God Delusion: “Darwin and his successors have shown how living creatures, with their spectacular statistical improbability and appearance of design, have evolved by slow, gradual degrees from simple beginnings. We can now safely say that the illusion of design in living creatures is just that—an illusion.”

But this means that his lament for Wise is misguided, for Dawkins is lamenting what only appears to be Wise’s dereliction of his duty to nurture and employ his gifts in ways that result in his happiness and an acquisition of knowledge that contributes to the common good. Yet because there are no designed natures and no intrinsic purposes, and thus no natural duties that we are obligated to obey, the intuitions that inform Dawkins’ judgment of Wise are as illusory as the design he explicitly rejects. But that is precisely one of the grounds by which Dawkins suggests that theists are irrational and ought to abandon their belief in God.

So if the theist is irrational for believing in God based on what turns out to be pseudo-design, Dawkins is irrational in his judgment of Wise and other creationists whom he targets for reprimand and correction. For Dawkins’ judgment rests on a premise that—although uncompromisingly maintained throughout his career—only appears to be true.


http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=776
_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

Lame, lame, lame. The author of this is just saying that Richard Dawkins is not allowed to have an opinion about moral duty or human potential because he's an atheist, materialist, evolutionist. It's an idiotic sophistry we've seen a lot of recently. Not long ago Log was making the same kind of argument on MADB, only with the addition that atheists may as well be cannibalistic perverts.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Funny, I don't recall ever saying apologists were wasting their talents.

I do recall saying some of them are quite intelligent.

perhaps you can point me towards my posts wherein I made the statement you attributed to me.

And this time, no claiming that it's self evident and not worth your time looking, like you did with your last unsubstantiated accusation.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_JAK
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Re: Apologists wasting their talent

Post by _JAK »

I challenge that “apologists” have much “talent.”

The real talent lies in disciplined research which produces inventions such as you enjoy -- one of which is the Internet. Apologists merely regurgitate ancient myths. That’s not talent.

JAK
_The Dude
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Re: Apologists wasting their talent

Post by _The Dude »

JAK wrote:I challenge that “apologists” have much “talent.”

The real talent lies in disciplined research which produces inventions such as you enjoy -- one of which is the Internet. Apologists merely regurgitate ancient myths. That’s not talent.

JAK


Look closer JAK. Apologists don't regurgitate, they invent new ways that the ancient myths could be true even in the face of strong evidence to the contrary. This takes talent. Are they wasting it? That depends on how much you would value the fantasy literature they could be producing instead, by applying those talents for speculative history and loopy logic.

I guess what I'm saying is, it would be our loss if Robert E. Howard and Lewis Caroll had been LDS apologists instead of fantasists.
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Re: Apologists wasting their talent

Post by _JAK »

The Dude stated:
Look closer JAK. Apologists don't regurgitate, they invent new ways that the ancient myths could be true even in the face of strong evidence to the contrary.


“Could be true” -- what’s that? The example the Internet is an accomplished fact. There is no mileage in “could be true” especially when, in fact, myth-makers and myth-regurgitators demonstrate no genuine discovery. Medical science, on the other hand or space science make discovery. Those discoveries are tested, skeptically reviewed, and succeed or fail based on reliable evidence and information.

“Strong evidence to the contrary” of myth-makers is both relevant and significant. Ancient myths adjust to information and knowledge. Granted, the adjustment is slow. But it does happen. Few believe the earth is the center of the universe today. Few believe the sun is one of two great lights as biblical myth claimed.

“Could be true” carries no weight. He who asserts must prove. Could be is irrelevant absent compelling evidence. The closer look reveals that ancient myths are unreliable.

The Dude continued:
This takes talent. Are they wasting it? That depends on how much you would value the fantasy literature they could be producing instead, by applying those talents for speculative history and loopy logic.


What’s the “talent”? Making up stories (in those you name) is certainly talent provided everyone recognizes that someone is making up a story creatively.

However, making up stories and then claiming the stories are not really stories but the word of God might be arrogance.

The Dude continued:
I guess what I'm saying is, it would be our loss if Robert E. Howard and Lewis Caroll had been LDS apologists instead of fantasists.


Although Howard was prominently known for creating the genre now known as “Sword & Sorcery”, Howard’s body of work includes historical adventure, suspense, epic poetry, gothic horror, sea stories and Western burlesques in the vein of the great Mark Twain.

I agree that Howard and Carroll were talents.

Myth-repeaters regurgitating superstition, dogma/doctrine are devoid of such talent as those you name.

Louis Carol perhaps most famous for Alice in Wonderland among other works was a talent.

Neither of these two talents are comparable with inventors of gods or with those who merely repeat that for which they have no creative genius.

JAK
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

But Dawkins, in fact, does not actually believe that living beings, including human beings, have intrinsic purposes or are designed so that one may conclude that violating one’s proper function amounts to a violation of one’s moral duty to oneself. Dawkins has maintained for decades that the natural world only appears to be designed. He writes in The God Delusion: “Darwin and his successors have shown how living creatures, with their spectacular statistical improbability and appearance of design, have evolved by slow, gradual degrees from simple beginnings. We can now safely say that the illusion of design in living creatures is just that—an illusion.”

But this means that his lament for Wise is misguided, for Dawkins is lamenting what only appears to be Wise’s dereliction of his duty to nurture and employ his gifts in ways that result in his happiness and an acquisition of knowledge that contributes to the common good. Yet because there are no designed natures and no intrinsic purposes, and thus no natural duties that we are obligated to obey, the intuitions that inform Dawkins’ judgment of Wise are as illusory as the design he explicitly rejects. But that is precisely one of the grounds by which Dawkins suggests that theists are irrational and ought to abandon their belief in God.

So if the theist is irrational for believing in God based on what turns out to be pseudo-design, Dawkins is irrational in his judgment of Wise and other creationists whom he targets for reprimand and correction. For Dawkins’ judgment rests on a premise that—although uncompromisingly maintained throughout his career—only appears to be true.



Brilliant. This is, indeed, the box metaphysical materialists put themselves in when attacking religion. whether or not anyone uses or misuses their talents, or never develops them at all, is, in Dawkins reductionist, accidental universe, of absolutely no importance whatever.

A few billion years from now, when our Sun swells to become a Red Giant and swallows our solar system whole, it will have mattered even less. The entire enterprise, in Dawkins view, is nothing more than a fantastically fortuitous confluence of natural phenomena, and need not have happened at all. There is nobody but Dawkins to care whether Wise did this or that or the other; no God, no purpose, no teleology, no meaning.

This is the materialists box canyon: nothing has meaning, but the Atheist spends large quantities of air, print, and froth trying to convince as many people as he can of precisely this.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Lame, lame, lame. The author of this is just saying that Richard Dawkins is not allowed to have an opinion about moral duty or human potential because he's an atheist, materialist, evolutionist. It's an idiotic sophistry we've seen a lot of recently. Not long ago Log was making the same kind of argument on MADB, only with the addition that atheists may as well be cannibalistic perverts.



Hardly. Dawkins is allowed any morality structure he desires. The problem Beckwith is pointing out here is the logically self negating nature of Dawkin's world view. You clearly didn't understand the argument, or perhaps just don't have the intellectual temperament for this kind of detailed, serious reasoning.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

Coggins7 wrote:This is the materialists box canyon: nothing has meaning, but the Atheist spends large quantities of air, print, and froth trying to convince as many people as he can of precisely this.


Ha! So if I have faith in the Flying Spagetti Monster, I can magically escape the box canyon of atheism? You mean all I have to do is believe in some kind of "god" and it becomes kosher for you?
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_The Dude
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Re: Apologists wasting their talent

Post by _The Dude »

JAK-

I was mostly kidding, while you appear determined to be very serious.

I think you are being to hard on them, but I'm not going to become an apologist for the apologists, so, you have yourself a nice day.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
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