DiscussMormonism.com

It's not in dispute that Joseph Smith married other men's wives. What some Mormons object to is that Smith had sex with those wives.

On Wade's thread, "The Economics of Anti-Mormonism", Coggins replied with the following upon learning I told a family investigating Mormonism about Joseph Smith's marriages to other men's wives:

You clearly failed to mention that the marriages to other men's wives of which you make so much hay were of a peculiar doctrinal nature that had no relation to sexual relations with them. You also probably failed to mention the complete lack of historical evidence that Joseph ever did, indeed, engage in any sexual relations with them (other than his legal plural wives, which, you might have mentioned, was a common practice among some very prominent Old Testament prophets). You may not have lied directly, but failing to explore the actual historical difficulties associated with proving the assumption of the worst about Joseph Smith as well as the doctrinal understandings of such practices, is still a form of intellectual dishonesty as any other.

Of course, I do not feel that I lied either by commission or omission, and replied further down the thread thusly:

Coggins, I am interested in why you believe Smith didn't have sex with other men's wives. As you know, I believe he did. I think his marriages to other men's wives were not purely dynastic or for the purpose of exaltation. I believe they were based on power and sex. Otherwise, why did Joseph Smith feel the need to hide so many of those marriages from the husbands of the women he married? Why hide them from Emma? What was the purpose of the secrecy if not to cover up extra-marital (or whatever you call it when you're illegally married to several other men's wives whilst being married yourself) sex?

Also, did not Sylvia Sessions question the paternity of her daughter? She seemed to believe Smith could have been her child's father. I'm sure of how babies are made, so if he didn't have sex with Sessions, why would she wonder if Joseph was the father of her child?

Coggins did not reply to my questions, and of course, that is his prerogative. I understand that. However, Coggins is not the only Mormon I know who asserts that Joseph Smith did not consummate his marriages to other men's wives. What is the basis for claiming Smith's marriages to already married women were of a "peculiar doctrinal nature" and were not sexual? It is my rudimentary understanding that there is substantial evidence that Smith did have a sexual relationship with those particular wives, but I'm far from an expert on the issue. I'm bringing this up in the hopes of learning something new from people more familiar with Joseph Smith's marriages than me.

Thanks,

KA

KimberlyAnn wrote:It's not in dispute that Joseph Smith married other men's wives. What some Mormons object to is that Smith had sex with those wives.

Coggins did not reply to my questions, and of course, that is his prerogative. I understand that. However, Coggins is not the only Mormon I know who asserts that Joseph Smith did not consummate his marriages to other men's wives. What is the basis for claiming Smith's marriages to already married women were of a "peculiar doctrinal nature" and were not sexual? It is my rudimentary understanding that there is substantial evidence that Smith did have a sexual relationship with those particular wives, but I'm far from an expert on the issue. I'm bringing this up in the hopes of learning something new from people more familiar with Joseph Smith's marriages than me.

Thanks,

KA

In short, there's no reason to believe he didn't have sex with those women. The only reason the apologists say that is that they are understandably uncomfortable with the idea of sexual polyandry.

Well, if he didn't have sex with them, he was violating the stated purpose of eternal marriage, wasn't he? The D&C was quite specific about its purpose.

Runtu wrote:In short, there's no reason to believe he didn't have sex with those women. The only reason the apologists say that is that they are understandably uncomfortable with the idea of sexual polyandry.

Well not really. This is one area where there is scant if any evidence that Smith had sexual relations with the polyandorous wives. And in fact the husbands did know about the marriages in many cases. One case though, Zina Jacobs, was Joseph's polyandrous wife. Henry Jacobs consented. Later, afer Joseph Smith's death BY took her to wife. BY stood in for Joseph Smith and Zina was sealed to Smith but marrried to BY for time. Odd that Henry stood there at the Nauvoo temple when this tool place and witnessed it all. While she never had an official divorce from Henry I believe she eventually considered herself divorced from Henry and she did have a child by him.

Anyway, there is plenty of evidence that the polyandrous marriges were for dyastic purposed but little that there were sexual relations.

beastie wrote:Well, if he didn't have sex with them, he was violating the stated purpose of eternal marriage, wasn't he? The D&C was quite specific about its purpose.

The idea of Polyandry seems to go agains D&C 132 since it requires a man to marry a virgin.

Coggins did not reply to my questions, and of course, that is his prerogative. I understand that. However, Coggins is not the only Mormon I know who asserts that Joseph Smith did not consummate his marriages to other men's wives. What is the basis for claiming Smith's marriages to already married women were of a "peculiar doctrinal nature" and were not sexual? It is my rudimentary understanding that there is substantial evidence that Smith did have a sexual relationship with those particular wives, but I'm far from an expert on the issue. I'm bringing this up in the hopes of learning something new from people more familiar with Joseph Smith's marriages than me.

I haven't had the time to research you last post, and I've had other posts to respond to, and other things to do today. If you can find some plausible, direct evidence that Joseph had sex with his polyandrous wives that cannot be called into question by counter evidence, or which is not potentially tainted by its provenance, please do.

Coggins7 wrote:

Coggins did not reply to my questions, and of course, that is his prerogative. I understand that. However, Coggins is not the only Mormon I know who asserts that Joseph Smith did not consummate his marriages to other men's wives. What is the basis for claiming Smith's marriages to already married women were of a "peculiar doctrinal nature" and were not sexual? It is my rudimentary understanding that there is substantial evidence that Smith did have a sexual relationship with those particular wives, but I'm far from an expert on the issue. I'm bringing this up in the hopes of learning something new from people more familiar with Joseph Smith's marriages than me.

I haven't had the time to research you last post, and I've had other posts to respond to, and other things to do today. If you can find some plausible, direct evidence that Joseph had sex with his polyandrous wives that cannot be called into question by counter evidence, or which is not potentially tainted by its provenance, please do.

Would a personal journal of one of the wives count as tainted by its provenance?

Jason Bourne wrote:Well not really. This is one area where there is scant if any evidence that Smith had sexual relations with the polyandorous wives.

Sylvia Sessions would not have questioned the paternity of her daughter if there were no reason to question it.

And in fact the husbands did know about the marriages in many cases. One case though, Zina Jacobs, was Joseph's polyandrous wife. Henry Jacobs consented. Later, afer Joseph Smith's death BY took her to wife. BY stood in for Joseph Smith and Zina was sealed to Smith but marrried to BY for time. Odd that Henry stood there at the Nauvoo temple when this tool place and witnessed it all. While she never had an official divorce from Henry I believe she eventually considered herself divorced from Henry and she did have a child by him.

That describes Zina Jacobs, but what about Nancy Marinda Hyde or Sarah Pratt, who were approached shortly after Joseph sent their husbands away on long missions?

Anyway, there is plenty of evidence that the polyandrous marriges were for dyastic purposed but little that there were sexual relations.

I think KA makes a good case.

If there were no sex involved, Sylvia Sessions' statements are nonsensical.

If there were no sex involved, why hide the marriages from Emma and the women's husbands?

If the revelation explicitly states the purpose of these unions, why would Joseph Smith have expressly violated that purpose by not having sex?

I've never understood this. Was Joseph Smith the only man that took multiple wives that did not have sex with them?

Did other men take multiple wives and not have sex?

If that's the case, what's the point? Or am I missing something?

The idea of Polyandry seems to go agains D&C 132 since it requires a man to marry a virgin.

Look closely at D&C 132:41

And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

Why the escape clause?