Mormonism is Black and White, All or Nothing

[_Coggins7]

Pure nonsense. Joseph Smith never committed any excommuicatable offense and neither you nor anyone else has ever produced a shred of direct, verifiable evidence that he did. Slander on.

Joseph married women who were already married to other men. That's called adultery (among other things). That's an excommunicatable offense, even today. Try doing that today, and see how far you get. Heck, try marrying multiple women who aren't married to anyone else, and watch how fast you're excommunicated.

Geez, Loran. You sound like an idiot when you make claims any of us can chop down.

There is a terrible double standard that exists in the Mormon church to this day - prophets, when not in a prophetic mode, are excused for their transgressions because they're just men. But if I as a member committed transgressions, I wouldn't be excused for being just a woman. I would be held accountable, sometimes harshly, for my "sins".

Evidence?

Delve into the financials, Loran. There's enough there to ex any number of our leaders. Were Kim to use church funds as badly as they've used church funds, she'd be out on her ear in a heartbeat. They are exempt though, because they are the foxes in charge of the henhouse.

Evidence and sources please. Put up or shut up. You're tired old adultery canard waves in the wind along with all your other self justificational obsessions and moral grandstanding.

We know about all your narcissistic, sanctimonious pontifications regarding your messed up personal and sexual life, and frankly, we're all tired of you pawning if off on Joseph Smith, the Church, and its leaders.

You remain the same tendentious pit viper you have always been.

[_harmony]

Evidence and sources please. Put up or shut up. You're tired old adultery canard waves in the wind along with all your other self justificational obsessions and moral grandstanding.

We know about all your narcissistic, sanctimonious pontifications regarding your messed up personal and sexual life, and frankly, we're all tired of you pawning if off on Joseph Smith, the Church, and its leaders.

You remain the same tendentious pit viper you have always been.

And you, sir, earn Mormons the bad name and assinine reputation so many of us have to bear. I'm too polite to give you the unvarnished version, so that will have to suffice.

Find the evidence for yourself. It'll mean more to you than if I hand it to you on a platter. We always appreciate that which we have to work for much more than that which is given to us. If you can't google familysearch.org, that's not my fault. And if spending half a billion dollars on a gift-wrapped present to the good citizens of Salt Lake City is your idea of appropriate use of tithing funds, it's not mine.

[_Coggins7]

Are you saying prophets have not preached their own opinions, tried to pass them off as doctrine when it clearly was not, and NOT been disciplined for it? Margaret Toscano tried to teach about Heavenly Mother, she was excommunicated. Brigham Young tried to teach that Adam was God, he was not excommunicated.

Margaret Toscano tried to pass off her own doctrinal preoccupations and leftist ideological nostrums as serious LDS theology, and she did this without any authority to teach doctrine for the Church and its members, not to mention her open hostility to settled doctrine. BY's speculations on the relation of Adam to other members of the Godhead was never official doctrine, never put before the members for sustaining vote, and was only taught publically in extremely fragmented and cryptic form. You're so far over your head here your ears are about to pop.

Mark Peterson, Joseph Fielding Smith and others taught racist theories in an attempt to justify the priesthood ban. These statements are now considered simply "their opinions" yet they were never disciplined for attempting to pass off their opinions as doctrine.

That's because they never tried to pass them off as official doctrine. They were official explanations, and no more. Had they been considered doctrine, they would have become a part of the official teachings of the church, and required of the membership to believe as a matter of fundamental principle. They never were. Further, no single apostle or Prophet, no matter what his own views, can independently put forward new doctrine or doctrinal explanations one his own in an official capcity for the church as a whole. Had this ever been official doctrine, the entire First Presidency and quorum would have been united in proclaiming it, and some official statement or proclamation would have been made. The young earth creationist views of some apostles and prophets fall into this category as well.

Joseph Smith was accused of committing adultery multiple times, the rules of polygamy written in D&C 132 says a man must marry unwed women, otherwise it is adultery, JOseph married women who were already married, which was adultery even by the rules of polygamy, yet no disciplinary courts were held. Disciplinary courts are held on a regular basis for members accused of adultery.

Keep foaming at the mouth until you have to shave. You very simply don't know what you're talking about, and the more you talk about it, the more imprudent and ignorant you appear. You don't understand how the Church is organized and governed, or the rules governing how new or novel doctrines or explanations are set out.

Sound and fury, signifying absolutely and utterly nothing.

[_Seven]

What if your questioning leads you to believe the Prophet is leading the church astray? What happened to those who questioned doctrines or followed their consience to fight polygamy in the 19th century? What would have happened if I had spoken out against the racism in the church? If answers to my prayers go against the church doctrines, how do I approach that without being hauled into a church court?

Pray, respect the authority the leaders hold and pray for them. Do good continually.

In other words, stay silent. That would be supporting/enabling the practice of immoral doctrine and church policy. What exactly would I pray for here?

[_Polygamy Porter]

Prophets do lie.

And so do the JACK Mormon members like you!

[_why me]

]

What is amazing about living in exmoland is that understanding that all church leaders are perfect.

I don't know any exmo that believed our Prophets were perfect or should be. Can you explain what you mean??? I often see this accusation, even by Chapel Mormons, but I never expected a sinless life or perfect Prophet.

I was raised to believe that the church is perfect but the members were not. Which means that the revelations and LDS doctrines that make up the Mormon gospel are supposed to be perfect. I never expected Joseph Smith to be a perfect man. I did however, expect that when Propehts speak for God to the LDS church, & reveal doctrines and ordinances, that it was from God himself. Their personal life, sins, etc. are not an issue for me but when they command sin in the name of God it is. When they make immoral policy or doctrines (even if we no longer teach them), that is a problem for me.

It is quite simple. When I have read exmo boards, it seems that the church leaders need to be perfect. If one makes a mistake, the exmo boards are all over it like a bee to honey. I am sure that many exmos have a duel personality. In real life, most believe that no GA is perfect but in cyberland, the GA's need to be perfect because every mistake is listed. Lets take President Hinckley's interview on Larry King a few years ago. Even today, what he said is being quoted on exmo boards. The guy is 90 years old. A prophet is not infalliable to old age. I can only hope to be so fluid if I ever reach such a golden age.

[_why me]

Pure nonsense. Joseph Smith never committed any excommuicatable offense and neither you nor anyone else has ever produced a shred of direct, verifiable evidence that he did. Slander on.

Joseph married women who were already married to other men. That's called adultery (among other things). That's an excommunicatable offense, even today. Try doing that today, and see how far you get. Heck, try marrying multiple women who aren't married to anyone else, and watch how fast you're excommunicated.

Geez, Loran. You sound like an idiot when you make claims any of us can chop down.

There is a terrible double standard that exists in the Mormon church to this day - prophets, when not in a prophetic mode, are excused for their transgressions because they're just men. But if I as a member committed transgressions, I wouldn't be excused for being just a woman. I would be held accountable, sometimes harshly, for my "sins".

Evidence?

So what if Joseph Smith did marry other men's wives. I see no problem in this. If a person reads Bushman, the reader will see that he did it out of kinship. Plus, it remains unclear if he actually knew just what the revelation actually meant. I might also had, that such sealings were not considered to be marriage. There does seem to be a difference between sealings and marriage. That being said, many of these women felt the spirit testify to them that the principle was correct. As to sexual relations, I believe that it remains unclear as to whether he had such relations with these fortunate women.

Delve into the financials, Loran. There's enough there to ex any number of our leaders. Were Kim to use church funds as badly as they've used church funds, she'd be out on her ear in a heartbeat. They are exempt though, because they are the foxes in charge of the henhouse.

[_why me]

I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea that the church teaches black and white thinking. For example, here is an excerpt from a conference talk in 2003 by Gordon B. Hinckley about Loyalty. As you can see, the prophet discourages such black and white thinking and preaches the importance of thinking for yourselves and choosing those apsects of Mormonism that work for you while ignoring those that don't.

In 1933, there was a movement in the United States to overturn the law which prohibited commerce in alcoholic beverages. When it came to a vote, Utah was the deciding state.

I was on a mission, working in London, England, when I read the newspaper headlines that screamed, "Utah Kills Prohibition."

President Heber J. Grant, then President of this Church, had pleaded with our people against voting to nullify Prohibition. It broke his heart when so many members of the Church in this state disregarded his counsel.

On this occasion I am not going to talk about the good or bad of Prohibition but rather of uncompromising loyalty to the Church.

How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand, align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength—highly intelligent and capable individuals.

Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.

Thanks for the quote, Satan Was Setup!

KA

What is the point of this quotation? I can see the same loyality in the Catholic Church or within any organization that believes in the counsel of its leaders. However, this is not to say that members follow blindly when it comes to voting. After all, there are a few democrats out there and in the wide world, I know of socialists, greens or other lefties who are Mormons.

On most social issues the lds church has been correct in my humble opinion.

[Guest]

Precisely. Think Unitarians, RLDS, and the liberal Protestant denominaitions. People who want grey areas just want to keep their options open out in left field.

Coggins, the Mormon church wants it's membership to operate in black and white, while at the same time allowing it's leadership to operate in the grey. Members are punished, excommunicated even, for the same offenses for which Joseph Smith is excused! There is a terrible double standard that exists in the Mormon church to this day - prophets, when not in a prophetic mode, are excused for their transgressions because they're just men. But if I as a member committed transgressions, I wouldn't be excused for being just a woman. I would be held accountable, sometimes harshly, for my "sins".

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is teeming with hypocrisy.

KA

Not true at all. I see no counsel as to how to vote in local and national elections. The lds church is a world wide church and as such, it contains members of various political persuasions. You are generalizing in your post to prove a point that is baseless. The Mormons that I know are not drones or mindless idiots.

We are all excused for our transgressions if we repent. The leadership is no different than we are. The liberal churches seem to be falling by the wayside or have left the teachings of the Bible. Show me where in the Bible where there is grey thinking. Christ told sinners to sin no more. He did not say. It is okay to sin if a person has a headache or if a person is depressed. Sin no more is rather black and white. His actions at the temple also speak of black and white thinking. He saw no grey area with the moneychangers. Kimberlyann, you seem to be barking up the wrong tree on this one.

[_why me]

A recent example of black and white thinking:

Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.

President Hinckley in his famous talk about Loyalty, Apr conference, 2003.

Link

It doesn't get much more black and white than that.

Hinckley is right. The exmos are also black and white. They claim: the churh is false and begin to speculate as fact as to why. Would you call RFM or the POSTmo boards sites that speak in the grey areas?