It is so easy to talk to non members about the church now

[_Some Schmo]

Of course it's all about perspective. That was the point of my post. Mormons have all kinds of justifications for the things they believe and do, and despite the harm they do to people as a result of their beliefs and resulting actions, they do it anyway... just like the KKK.

But what harm does the Church do today that is comparable to murder?

...

by the way...it's fun debating with you, Some Schmo! :)

Well, I think the wedge the church drives between families basically has the same end result as murder, which is that sometimes, family members never speak to each other again, but that's not really the point I was trying to make. I was never trying to say that the church was as bad as the KKK.

All I was getting at was, in response to someone saying that the Mormons just go about their business, blah blah blah, etc etc... what's up with the hostility (paraphrasing), is that the church does injure some people. (Why would we need recovery boards, and why would they be so popular if this weren't the case?) To a person who has been injured by the church, it seems reasonable to make the comparison to the KKK to get the other person asking the question to understand why there might be hostility.

And just so you know, I enjoy talking to you too, but I never come to these boards to debate people. My comments always are just a snapshot of what I'm thinking at any given time. They may be right or wrong, but my intention is rarely if ever to persuade or debate. I expect people to take them or leave them, and imagine they're usually left.

[_Yoda]

I expect people to take them or leave them, and imagine they're usually left.

LOL!

You give yourself too little credit, my friend.

;)

[_barrelomonkeys]

He said: "I just don't understand how that mass enslaver/tyrant Julius Caesar got a salad named after him"

I said: "We I guess he liked salads".

He said: "So if I eat a Caesar Salad am I somehow supporting what he did to the Roman Republic and the Gauls and all those other groups"

I said: "Uh....maybe"

Needless to say....he's one person who'll never eat a Caesar Salad.

I'm so hungry now.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

While BY made some pretty strong remarks that were racist (even more so by todays standards) he was not unique for his time and was very much a product of his culture. . . Of course you do not bother to discuss the historical and social culture of the man who made the statement and note that it was a common view of much af the citizens of the USA at the time.

That's a very basic tenet of Internet Mormonism. As I explained on my website on the topic, "Chapel Mormons believe that a prophet is a foreordained man of the highest moral caliber. Internet Mormons believe that a prophet is not necessarily any better than his societal average."

As for your comments above, I truly wonder: Wouldn't direct communication with diety tend to have a hallowing influence on the recipient? Wouldn't communication with the Prince of Peace tend to elevate someone beyond the mundane?

No, apparently not, or else we can simply assume that society's views on race were fine and dandy with diety -- in which case Mormons should probably still be advocating racism.

Praise to the man who conformed with societal average!!!!!!!

[_Polygamy Porter]

[...]The only way around that is to realize that Brigham wasn't God's mouthpiece and he didn't speak for or with God. He was a man, trying his human best, but not in communication with diety and certainly not speaking for diety.

Or... the only way around it is to realize that G-d occasionally removes His hand from the anus of His ventriloquist puppets.

Man am I glad I won't have to shake hands with God.

Mormons don't mind because they think that the prophets crap doesn't stink....

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

[...]The only way around that is to realize that Brigham wasn't God's mouthpiece and he didn't speak for or with God. He was a man, trying his human best, but not in communication with diety and certainly not speaking for diety.

Or... the only way around it is to realize that G-d occasionally removes His hand from the anus of His ventriloquist puppets.

Man am I glad I won't have to shake hands with God.

Mormons don't mind because they think that the prophets crap doesn't stink....

It was a very icky image.

Whatever, nothing surprising about BY speaking up without authorization, but God never corrected him -- so unless God is also changing with societal norms we should assume that was God is a racist, then, now and forever.

[_harmony]

Whatever, nothing surprising about BY speaking up without authorization, but God never corrected him -- so unless God is also changing with societal norms we should assume that was God is a racist, then, now and forever.

That is simply not so, and I cannot let this stand without comment. Just because Brigham never corrected himself doesn't mean God approved of his racist attitude. God cannot force anyone, including prophets, to hear what he says. To do so would renig on his promise to allow us to make our own choices. Brigham chose to lead the church in the wrong direction. It took generations before the course was corrected, not because God was influenced by cultural norms, but because the prophets weren't listening.

You notice the bit about the prophet not being able to lead the church astray was put forth by that same prophet. Brigham is responsible for a great deal of manmade doctrine being misattributed to God. I always use the same criteria: if it builds me up, it's from God. If it hammers me down, it's manmade. That has never failed me.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Whatever, nothing surprising about BY speaking up without authorization, but God never corrected him -- so unless God is also changing with societal norms we should assume that was God is a racist, then, now and forever.

That is simply not so, and I cannot let this stand without comment. Just because Brigham never corrected himself doesn't mean God approved of his racist attitude. God cannot force anyone, including prophets, to hear what he says. To do so would renig on his promise to allow us to make our own choices. Brigham chose to lead the church in the wrong direction. It took generations before the course was corrected, not because God was influenced by cultural norms, but because the prophets weren't listening.

Which "GOD" are you referencing here? Harmony's God? The chapel Mormon god? The internet Mormon God? The christian GOD? The FSM? The god damn god?

You make no sense.

Are you saying that LDS Inc is now "correct"? Oh except the parts you do not like right? What is this? The Chuck-o-mormon-Rama buffet of beliefs?

Why not just admit it is nothing more than another religion, all man made. If it brings you joy, then stay there, if it does not, then get the bleep out. DUH?

You notice the bit about the prophet not being able to lead the church astray was put forth by that same prophet. Brigham is responsible for a great deal of manmade doctrine being misattributed to God. I always use the same criteria: if it builds me up, it's from God. If it hammers me down, it's manmade. That has never failed me.

So then god is subjective and differs for all people? Gaz likes to be under the thumb of god, you do not..

Why not say, If it builds me up, it well, it ummm..builds me up... seek after it. If it tears you down, well DUH?

Why do you feel you must attribute everything either with god or not?

[_harmony]

I didn't understand a thing you wrote, PP. Care to try again?

[_Polygamy Porter]

I didn't understand a thing you wrote, PP. Care to try again?

A variant on RTFM, RMFPA!