Defending Mormonism for fun and profit

[_Tal Bachman]

We all know about the salaried dudes. What about the amateur Mormonism defenders?

Most seem like swell guys (not all - some seem totally deranged and dishonest). But most seem pretty swell. Most would probably be happy to lend their neighbour a power washer or jump start his pick-up. Most seem like they're living pretty productive lives. But once Mormonism comes up online, a near-undiluted stream of strangeness begins to emerge from them.

One classic of amateur Mormon apologetics derives from the risible efforts of guys like Hugh Nibley, Davis Bitton, Richard Bushman, and Peterson (who never seems to have met an apologetic bandwagon he didn't attempt to hoist himself on to), to cast doubt on the entire enterprise of knowing in the first place. Dudes like Benjamin McGuire actually seem to think they're not nuts, defending an organization whose leaders continue to announce that "they know beyond a shadow of a doubt" that Mormonism is true, whose "most correct book on earth" contains the oft-cited "Moroni's promise", who sponsor monthly TESTIMONY meetings, etc., by announcing that "no one really knows anything, anyway". A few references to Karl Popper, a few to Thomas Kuhn, a few to Immanuel Kant, and they're off and running. (And this, despite the fact that they're typing on to a laptop computer connected via wireless to a world wide web, intermittently using a cell phone, etc.). (Funny how the human race's inability to ever know anything could have ever resulted in the human race knowing more now than it did 500 years ago...hmmmm!).

All this strategy indicates, though church defenders would never say it in these words, is that they don't actually have a "testimony" (that is, a knowledge of some sort through the Holy Ghost) at all - and no one but themselves proved it. Even more, they have made clear that they believe that no one can really have a "testimony", in the way that the overwhelming majority of Mormons, including GAs, think of it. Lovely. "Thanks for the help, guys!"

Another funny tactic is what we might call Juliannism. It is the attempt to defend Mormonism against charges that, like so many other religious organizations, it is authoritarian and often unfair (capricious), by playing a capricious authoritarian.

Another funny tactic, best exemplified over here by Coggins7, is to fault others for not being rational enough in their discussions of Mormonism, while announcing that the creator of the universe informed you that Mormonism was the only true religion in the universe - so that no disconfirming "evidence" or "logic" could ever matter, since you "now know that there can be no such thing as 'disconfirming evidence of Mormonism, since I already know it's all it claims'". No problem there, right?

This is all chuckle-inducing for sure, but no more so than the recollection of all the stupid things I myself used to say in order to keep believing what, in truth, can be quite difficult to believe once we allow ourselves to start really thinking deeply. What contortions our minds can get into...!

[_Gazelam]

I read this twice, and still havent figured out what your point is?

Are you asking if the church pays the "proffesional" apologists?

Are you asking if apologists have testimonies?

Are you stating that if a person has a witness of the spirit they shouldent spend their time showing theological connections?

Whats your point?

[_Levi]

This is all chuckle-inducing for sure, but no more so than the recollection of all the stupid things I myself used to say in order to keep believing what, in truth, can be quite difficult to believe once we allow ourselves to start really thinking deeply. What contortions our minds can get into...!

Or, could it be, that there is a completely different dimension to life, love and learning than empiricalism. That is, the kind of Holy Spirit the Bible describes; the knowledge that comes from obeying God and fighting against His enemies.

You empiricists will fade after your 15 minutes of PBS fame, but the truly spiritual giants of the earth will continue to move and shape the earth.

I feel sorry for your hostility to your former faith.

[_dartagnan]

Having trouble keeping track of your own sock puppets Tradd?

Remember, Levi is the atheist Jew who attacks religion in general.

[_Dr. Shades]

You empiricists will fade after your 15 minutes of PBS fame, but the truly spiritual giants of the earth will continue to move and shape the earth.

Can you name any of them? And in what way are they moving and shaping the earth?

[_Pumplehoober]

Having trouble keeping track of your own sock puppets Tradd?

Remember, Levi is the atheist Jew who attacks religion in general.

You do realize that you are barking up the wrong tree here. I have no idea who Levi is, but he/she is certainly not I. Nevertheless your paranoia is strong enough to stifle any dissent, no matter how true. It is tremendously funny, however. Meanwhile back to my vacation.

[_The Nehor]

You empiricists will fade after your 15 minutes of PBS fame, but the truly spiritual giants of the earth will continue to move and shape the earth.

Can you name any of them? And in what way are they moving and shaping the earth?

I think he means Jesus, Peter, Paul, Moses, Abraham, Mohammed, the Buddha, Zarathustra, Confucius, Guru Nanak, Vardhamana Mahavira. Whether you think it for good or ill these people have had a more lasting effect of the history of the world thus far than any modern empiricist.

[_grayskull]

How come you don't mention Nephi or Alma? Is that an implicit acknowledgement that, yeah, even Mormons can separate fiction from reality when it comes down to it?

[_Yoda]

How come you don't mention Nephi or Alma? Is that an implicit acknowledgement that, yeah, even Mormons can separate fiction from reality when it comes down to it?

Shades asked if he could name any, not all.

;)

[_Dr. Shades]

You empiricists will fade after your 15 minutes of PBS fame, but the truly spiritual giants of the earth will continue to move and shape the earth.

Can you name any of them? And in what way are they moving and shaping the earth?

I think he means Jesus, Peter, Paul, Moses, Abraham, Mohammed, the Buddha, Zarathustra, Confucius, Guru Nanak, Vardhamana Mahavira. Whether you think it for good or ill these people have had a more lasting effect of the history of the world thus far than any modern empiricist.

I think Levi's context was the currently living spiritual giants of the earth, whoever they are. He used the words "continue to," as in they'll keep doing whatever it is they're doing right now.

For your part, you refer only to the followers of such historical figures. That's fine and dandy, but I want to know who Levi thinks these "spiritual giants of the earth" are and how, specifically, they move and shape the earth.