A Conversation with Tal

Post by **_Gazelam** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:28 pm

Your use of infidelity as an example of losing your faith is very appropriate. I've heard others here express the loss of their faith along the same lines. This might also serve as an example of why so many express such anger and hatred for the church afterwards, the same feelings as one would have towards an unfaithful spouse.

Despite being presented with a vast array of arguements against the church, I have seen nothing that has dented my testimony in the least. Quite the contrary, in studying out the claims I've been able to study things I normaly might not have and received an even clearer picture than before of the amazing breadth of the church and its doctrines.

Knowing whether a feeling was "just a feeling" or "a prompting from the HG", is, by definition, a matter of "knowing". And how do we "know" things, especially things pertaining to "the spirit"? The answer is, through the spirit itself. And how do we know whether it is the spirit motivating our emotions/feelings, or something else?...

I think you can answer this one for yourself. Do you feel that you could repeat the testimony you received on your own? The same way you would feel anger or silly from watching a movie? How, in your opinion, could you re-feel the witnes of the Holy Ghost that you had?

Gaz

Post by **_Tal Bachman** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:44 pm

Gazelam mi amigo

You inadvertently demonstrate just the kind of maze I referred to, when you write:

"How, in your opinion, could you re-feel the witnes of the Holy Ghost that you had?"

Don't you see, Gazelam? The question is whether what we thought as members was "the witness of a (the) Holy Ghost", in fact was. In switching spontaneously to re-creation, you have begged the very question, and seem still inside the maze I alluded to. My question is, can you step outside of it for one moment?

By the way, re-creating the experience itself is a snap, though I should never have believed that as a member. We don't even need a religious environment per se to "re-create the experience", and I daresay that every former Mormon reading this will concur with this.

Anyway, back to the main point: the question here really is, what exactly IS the experience we used to think was "the witness of the (Mormon) Holy Ghost"? If it wasn't really "the Holy Ghost" as we once thought of it, how would we know that?

What is your (non-circular) answer?

Post by **_Tal Bachman** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:34 am

Gaz

I started another thread on the Book of Moses. Why don't we keep this one going for the Holy Ghost question?

Post by **_Gazelam** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:52 am

Ok. I'm working on an answer right now for the question you asked. I'll check out the other thread.

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:26 pm

Tal wrote:Knowing whether a feeling was "just a feeling" or "a prompting from the HG", is, by definition, a matter of "knowing". And how do we "know" things, especially things pertaining to "the spirit"? The answer is, through the spirit itself. And how do we know whether it is the spirit motivating our emotions/feelings, or something else?...

Tal, I hope you don't mind my jumping into the thread to ask a question here. :)

Do you believe that there is a God that exists outside of Mormonism? Are your feelings similar to Some Schmo's in the sense that there is no God, no Holy Ghost, nothing beyond this existence? I'm just curious as to where you are coming from. I'm sure you have probably answered this question before, but I'm not as familiar with your postings as others may be since my reading of posts on RfM is rather spotty.

Post by **_Tal Bachman** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:23 am

Do you believe that there is a God that exists outside of Mormonism? Are your feelings similar to Some Schmo's in the sense that there is no God, no Holy Ghost, nothing beyond this existence? I'm just curious as to where you are coming from. I'm sure you have probably answered this question before, but I'm not as familiar with your postings as others may be since my reading of posts on RfM is rather spotty.

Hi Liz

I have no idea who or what is running the universe. I do feel pretty certain, however, that if there is a God, the he's not a member of the Mormon church.

I suppose in a way, I am not quite capable of believing that life is the product of dumb chance.

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:27 am

I do feel pretty certain, however, that if there is a God, the he's not a member of the Mormon church.

LOL! I'm inclined to agree with you.

Post by **_Jason Bourne** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:20 pm

Tal

May I ask a question here.

In the quite by Gaz you talk about going from the most avid Mormon zealot, I think you called yourself that, to having it all unravel and causing tremendous pain. My question is what was the starting point for things coming apart for you..what was the catylist...?

Post by **_Gazelam** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:13 am

I swear I'll get back to this thread. I've been really busy and I want to give more than a "knee jerk" responce to this.