A Different MMM Thread

[_The Nehor]

I am unaware of any persecution toward the Mormons that even comes close to the slaughter of unarmed men, women, and innocent children on that horriific day at MM.

Again, this is sickening to me that anybody would try and find the context and possible reasons for murdering children and unarmed adults.

It's not OK when massacres occured in the Old Testament either. It's one thing for God to wipe out who He wants with plagues or floods and it's quite another to command a good person to massacre children and innocent people. I don't worship a God who would command me to do evil for His purpose. He would cease to be God. If He needs righteous followers turned murderers to further His plan, He can do it himself.

While comparing these kinds of tragedies is difficult the aftermath of Haun's Mill comes close. Many who surrendered were then shot including at least one child. Women were raped.

But I was not trying to justify what happened. Finding context is important because I don't want it to happen again. More importantly I want to be able to guard myself from doing what they did or letting fear drive reason and charity from me. I don't doubt that some of those involved thought that it was sickening to try to justify what happened to the LDS in the past as well. That didn't stop them from at least once becoming that which they found disgusting.

[_The Nehor]

Many people are victims to horrific crimes yet they don't go murdering everybody they perceive as a threat. Self defense and savagely killing unarmed people are not comparable.

I can't believe you say that you don't know what you would have done in that situation and you hope you wouldn't bash in the head of an innocent child pleading for her life?

Most don't go murdering everybody they perceive as a threat. The idea of a preemptive strike is not new to this generation though.

[_gramps]

At best, you could argue the "phantom threat" scenario, I guess. But, that would be the leaders of the church's fault as much as anyone's, no?

Could be, but no matter how high up the chain the situation went it could still have been mistaken intentions or fear creating phantom threats. I think Dubya honestly thought Iraq was a real threat. He might still think it was. Looking back we can see the Utah War didn't spiral out of control and there was no campaign of genocide against the Mormons or against non-LDS settlers by Mormon and Indian bands. They didn't know then.

Further we're emotionally detached from the situation. They were not. I expect much more rational accounts of the War on Terror will appear in 25 years and in 200 years may be portrayed as something along the lines of Japanese internment. It didn't feel that way to me and it didn't to the leaders back in the 40's either.

I don't have a solution though, just ramblings. I also apologize for editing my above post immediatly after posting it. I seem to hit the submit button then always see something I need to add or change.

No worries about the edits. I would have never noticed.

So are you admitting that there were no actual threats to their safety from the Fancher party, itself? Rather, they perceived some threat because of what their leaders had been telling them?

Oh, and the Iraq War thing is not working for me. I'm a little slow, that's true. Would you like to work out that analogy a little more to see if I can get what you are trying to say here?

[_Sam Harris]

Come on, Nehor. We're talking about the cold-blooded killing of people who had surrendered in hopes of being helped, and then the brutal slaughter of women and very young children.

You really think that you could bash in the head of a innocent child pleading for her life?

I hope not. Could I kill someone who I thought was involved in murdering someone I cared for or was planning to? Possibly, impossible to know without experiencing it. I don't believe I know basic right from wrong on a better level than they did.

Murder is wrong. Stop letting the need for a completely inerrant church, a "true" church get in the way of this, Nehor.

[_The Nehor]

Murder is wrong. Stop letting the need for a completely inerrant church, a "true" church get in the way of this, Nehor.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You think I think the Church is inerrant? Me? Wow. I don't even really like the Church that much. I like some people in it and the Gospel it teaches but I've lived in it my whole life and have seen the comedy of errors it's filled with, some funny and some very sad. I think it's necessary but that is about it.

Did you read what I said? I wasn't justifying what happened or condoning murder. I was trying to figure out what motivated them to do it so I can guard against it myself. These weren't some kind of monsters. They were people. We all happen to be people too. Why would we be immune to similar circumstances causing similar responses?

[_Sam Harris]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You think I think the Church is inerrant? Me? Wow. I don't even really like the Church that much. I like some people in it and the Gospel it teaches but I've lived in it my whole life and have seen the comedy of errors it's filled with, some funny and some very sad. I think it's necessary but that is about it.

Did you read what I said? I wasn't justifying what happened or condoning murder. I was trying to figure out what motivated them to do it so I can guard against it myself. These weren't some kind of monsters. They were people. We all happen to be people too. Why would we be immune to similar circumstances causing similar responses?

They were brainwashed. That's what you guard against. Don't let someone who tells you they speak for God rule you. Question always. There's no excuse for this, so there's no need for analysis or further discussion. It was sick and wrong. Plain and simple. These people let themselves be duped into thinking that a man needed to stand between them and God. They had offspring, who still live today, and who still think this is necessary. And there are still problems. Perhaps not murderous problems, but problems that diminish the emotional quality of life of many.

[_gramps]

Murder is wrong. Stop letting the need for a completely inerrant church, a "true" church get in the way of this, Nehor.

Yes, but Brother Brigham didn't think so, I believe.

One of my ancestors, a Mormon in Salt Lake City, shot a soldier on Main Street in cold blood due to an argument they had had. Yes, he was clubbed by the soldier and nearly died (1858). After he recovered, he planned revenge and with the help of Wild Bill Hickman murdered him.

That's neither here nor there. However, not many years later, 1861, still having never been caught or brought to trial (though he was wanted for the murder), he was set apart to be a High Councilman.

Here is what Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal about that:

12 Sunday....We met at the Historians Office at ½ past 5 oclok & ordained 4 men to the High Priesthood & High councillers of this Stake of Zion. Presidet Young Blessed Brother Long. Brother Kimball Blessed Brother [ ]. John Taylor Blessed Brigham Young jr. W. Woodruff Blessed Howard Sp[enser?] President Young said yes & I ordain you to kill evry scoundrel that seeks your life & when you Come across such men use them up.

This was not very long after the massacre and it doesn't seem Brother Brigham had any problem with murder.

[_Seven]

While comparing these kinds of tragedies is difficult the aftermath of Haun's Mill comes close. Many who surrendered were then shot including at least one child. Women were raped.

But I was not trying to justify what happened. Finding context is important because I don't want it to happen again. More importantly I want to be able to guard myself from doing what they did or letting fear drive reason and charity from me. I don't doubt that some of those involved thought that it was sickening to try to justify what happened to the LDS in the past as well. That didn't stop them from at least once becoming that which they found disgusting.

I think you seem like a great guy Nehor, which is why I find it hard to believe you can only "hope" you wouldn't bash a child to death. Fear. no matter how irrational, couldn't drive me to commit such a heinous act.

If you are trying to guard yourself against becoming a murdering religous fanatic, the first step would be to know your conscience on what is right and wrong. Those who only define right and wrong based on what Prophets/ leaders tells them God commands, are the type of people that I fear. They are the kind of people that will murder if the Prophet told them too. (after they pray for their witness ;) These are also the ones who at first will be sickened by the evil command but then make themselves submit to God. There is no justification or context for slaughtering by your hand, innocent chldren. I know many people who cringe at the horrific things written in the Old Testament and try to see it through some grand perspective of God's plan to make it feel better. I know longer need to do that because I have allowed myself to follow what my God given conscience tells me and what my knowledge of the Bible's history has told me.

Haun's Mill, however tragic, doesn't even come close to MMM.

[_The Nehor]

They were brainwashed. That's what you guard against. Don't let someone who tells you they speak for God rule you. Question always. There's no excuse for this, so there's no need for analysis or further discussion. It was sick and wrong. Plain and simple. These people let themselves be duped into thinking that a man needed to stand between them and God. They had offspring, who still live today, and who still think this is necessary. And there are still problems. Perhaps not murderous problems, but problems that diminish the emotional quality of life of many.

I don't think it was that simple. Other atrocities similar to this one have occurred throughout history and few, if any, of them can be ascribed entirely or even mostly to brainwashing.

I also think brainwashing itself is a mythic word used to exonerate people's choices or to justify denying someone the responsibility or right to accept the results of their decisions. Those people did what they did and had to live and die with it and if my beliefs are correct, still have to accept what they did.

[_Sam Harris]

I don't think it was that simple. Other atrocities similar to this one have occurred throughout history and few, if any, of them can be ascribed entirely or even mostly to brainwashing.

I also think brainwashing itself is a mythic word used to exonerate people's choices or to justify denying someone the responsibility or right to accept the results of their decisions. Those people did what they did and had to live and die with it and if my beliefs are correct, still have to accept what they did.

Please show me an incident in which people killed with clear minds.