a literary critic makes dumb arguments for religion

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_Gadianton
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a literary critic makes dumb arguments for religion

Post by _Gadianton »

I saw a reference on MAD to this article on Stanely Fish - not one of my favorites - who is apparently making arguments against atheism. All I can say is that I've been far to hard on FAIR apologists. It appears the worst of the worst apologetics bent on attacking science and atheism are barely worse than the output of a well-known literary critic.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/Dine ... ts_atheism

In a follow-up article, Fish deepens his inquiry by looking at the kind of evidence that atheists like Hawkins and Harris present for their “scientific” outlook. Harris, for example, writes that “there will probably come a time when we will achieve a detailed understanding of human happiness and of ethical judgments themselves at the level of the brain.” Fish asks, what is this confidence based on? Not, he notes, on a record of progress. Science today can no more explain ethics or human happiness than it could a thousand years ago.

Still, Harris says that scientific research hasn’t panned out because the research is in the early stage and few of the facts are in. Fish comments, “Of course one conclusion that could be drawn is that the research will not pan out because moral intuitions are not reducible to phyhsical processes. That may be why so few of the facts are in.”


The Lake Trout is wrong. Harris is absolutely right that science might achieve a detailed understanding of happiness and ethical judgements at a brain level. He didn't write that science might unravel the deepest philosophical questions. Anyone who's found benefit from taking anti-depressents (including a large segment of the religious) must believe science understands something about human happiness (if not metaphysical notions like "Eudemia"). The only correction I'd make to Harris is that cognitive science may prove sufficient for understanding higher mental capacities without necessarily reducing to neurons for everything (as quite a number of athiest philosophers are nonreductive physicalists).

Fish draws on examples from John Milton to make the point is that unbelief, no less than belief, is based on a perspective. If you assume that material reality is all there is, then you are only going to look for material explanations, and any explanations that are not material will be rejected out of hand.


This is true for surgeons as well as for priests. In the middle of a complicated surgery, blood could unexpectedly start spurting and the explanation could be "non-material".

Fish’s objection is not so much that this is dogmatism but that it is dogmatism that refuses to recognize itself as such. At least religious people like Milton have long recognized that their core beliefs are derived from faith.


Without a shout out to Tal's thread(s), we could note the problem of induction exists, therefore all is faith. But that doesn't leave believers with anything but "unjustified belief" to claim for themselves (or the absurd alternative that all beliefs are justified). Paul said, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." It would seem then, that dogmatically holding to "materialism", rejecting things "not seen" out of hand, is the antithesis of having faith. King Salmon is forgetting the ontological commitments he made one sentence prior for the notion of faith.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

(or the absurd alternative that all beliefs are [equally] justified)


I don't think this would be too an exagerrated reading of Fish. With a friend like Fish, religion doesn't need enemies. In fairness, however, Dinesh D'Souza is notoriously unreliable in his ability to report the statements of others. I would take his summaries with a grain of salt. That said, if you presuppose materialism, it's no shock when you do not find evidence of a non-materialist world.
_Gadianton
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Post by _Gadianton »

A light,

Thanks for the token reply to my thread. I didn't know anything about d'souza. I admit I mainly have encountered Fish online with these random dudes who have taken a lit crit class or something where they studied "deconstruction". I've never been impressed, though Blixa could probably give us the truth of the matter here...:)

To your last comment, what do you think of functionalists/computationalists in general? Dan Dennett is an ardent critic of religion and yet, has been incredibly open minded to, for all intents and purposes, "non-material" accounts of consciousness. In fact, he's fairly critical of his friend Paul Churchland who might be considered the reductive physicalist poster child. It seems to me, that Hilary Putnam and others who developed functionalist positions were pretty open to resisting the sales pitch of "materialist dogma" when there were compelling reasons to do so and the philosophy of mind has even bread dualists, entirely commited to their positions based on the (possibly unfortunate) intuitive force of the arguments against physicalism, absent any vested religious interests. The status of physicalism is still a hotly debated topic. So I don't think we can say as easily as Bumble Bee Tuna does that philosophers today are unflinching materialists.

p.s. what church do you go to? I can't glean from your posts anything I can use for unrelated cheap shot material at your sacred beliefs.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

eh, I'm on sabbatical. I don't have to answer.

Honestly, D'Souza is a rightwing flack.

I have little use for Stanley Fish either, as he peddles a very middle-of-the-road "literary theory." To be fair, I guess he's remarked on social issues of the day before, but for the most part he seems content to frame things "above the fray," as it were.

Maybe I'll jump in to these discussions later---ALITD seems to be holding thier own in current threads and I'm content to watch at the moment.

(Lest I sound too pretentious here, I must point out I'm all jacked up on pain meds. Root canals don't exactly rule, but the script perks do!)
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

A Light in the Darkness wrote:
(or the absurd alternative that all beliefs are [equally] justified)


I don't think this would be too an exagerrated reading of Fish. With a friend like Fish, religion doesn't need enemies. In fairness, however, Dinesh D'Souza is notoriously unreliable in his ability to report the statements of others. I would take his summaries with a grain of salt. That said, if you presuppose materialism, it's no shock when you do not find evidence of a non-materialist world.


I'm not overly impressed with D'Souza either.

What would you consider objectively verifiable evidence of a non-materialist world? (Implied herein is my bias that subjective experiences--e.g., a mystical experience--do not constitute "evidence" in that they cannot be objectively verified.)

If there were such a thing as credible, objective evidence of a non-material world, I would be interested. My lack of belief in non-material phenomenon is not based on ideology but on lack of evidence. I'm skeptical but willing to be open-minded.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

guy sajer wrote:If there were such a thing as credible, objective evidence of a non-material world, I would be interested. My lack of belief in non-material phenomenon is not based on ideology but on lack of evidence. I'm skeptical but willing to be open-minded.


I have no interest in convincing others of my belief in a non-material world. I am, however, convinced of it. And the reasons are small: three words.

Run.

(my name).

Yes.
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

Gadianton wrote:So I don't think we can say as easily as Bumble Bee Tuna does that philosophers today are unflinching materialists.


I don't think one can assume a atheism implies materialism or theism imiplies rejecting materialism. There have been non-materialist atheists and materialist theists. I think what one can do is point out that many atheists are materialists and it is not uncommon for them to justify their atheism via their materialism. Their arguments go something like, "Well, there's no physical evidence of God to satisfy me, and belief in the nonphysical is just silly, so therefore my atheism is justified." For those, I think my comment is apt. Also, I'd point out part of the problem here is that materialism, like the term naturalism, is not entirely clear. It's one thing to say that all that exists is matter and energy as understood by modern physics. But that's not the claim self-described materialists or naturalists are always making. Physics is, in principle, capable of incorporating more than this and in order for materialism or naturalism to bear the kind of claims its followers want to make , it can't keep folding in whatever we think is reasonable to believe exists into the material or natural world. We're not doing much if materialism is just saying whatever mainstream science has accepted at this point. Those that assert materialism to win an argument and mean that are just asserting a mixture of scientism and faith in the mainstream.
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