Liars

[_KimberlyAnn]

Any one of us who's been lied to or lied about knows how difficult it can be to ever again trust the person who told the lie. And why should we trust malicious liars? They prove themselves untrustworthy and though we may be able to forgive them, completely trusting them is next to impossible. I wouldn't trust someone who spread lies about me with my wallet, much less with my mental or spiritual well-being, but millions of Mormons trust Joseph Smith's claims that he saw God and that he received revelation from God even though he is a confirmed liar and slanderer.

Joseph Smith publicly lied about polygamy. He denied it's practice even while he was married to several women. He lied to his own wife, Emma, and kept many of his plural marriages secret from her. He lied to the husbands of many of his polyandrous wives. He maliciously lied to slander the reputation of Martha Brotherton after she exposed his nefarious, polygamous plotting to secure her as Brigham's next wife. Joseph Smith was a LIAR and a deceiver.

I've had people knowingly lie about me to discredit me or ruin my reputation. It's happened several times, in fact. I submit that people who would do such a thing are of a defective moral character and should not be trusted with anything as important as one's spiritual guidance. If Joseph Smith lied about Martha Brotherton, what makes anyone think he told the truth about seeing God in a grove of trees? Or that he told the truth about sword-wielding angels forcing him to marry other men's wives?

Of course, everyone lies sometimes, but I believe there is a difference between little white lies and malicious lies meant to destroy someone's credibility or coerce them into such things as plural marriage. Joseph Smith told vicious lies that hurt people - that ruined their lives. Why would anyone trust his claims that he was a prophet of God? He couldn't be counted on to tell the truth to his own wife, why should anyone trust him to tell the truth to anyone else? And even if he were "speaking as a man" when he lied, shouldn't a man who supposedly spoke one-on-one with God be held to a higher standard of accountability than people who haven't had the privilege of seeing God?

KA

[_Some Schmo]

Any one of us who's been lied to or lied about knows how difficult it can be to ever again trust the person who told the lie. And why should we trust malicious liars? They prove themselves untrustworthy and though we may be able to forgive them, completely trusting them is next to impossible. I wouldn't trust someone who spread lies about me with my wallet, much less with my mental or spiritual well-being, but millions of Mormons trust Joseph Smith's claims that he saw God and that he received revelation from God even though he is a confirmed liar and slanderer.

Joseph Smith publicly lied about polygamy. He denied it's practice even while he was married to several women. He lied to his own wife, Emma, and kept many of his plural marriages secret from her. He lied to the husbands of many of his polyandrous wives. He maliciously lied to slander the reputation of Martha Brotherton after she exposed his nefarious, polygamous plotting to secure her as Brigham's next wife. Joseph Smith was a LIAR and a deceiver.

I've had people knowingly lie about me to discredit me or ruin my reputation. It's happened several times, in fact. I submit that people who would do such a thing are of a defective moral character and should not be trusted with anything as important as one's spiritual guidance. If Joseph Smith lied about Martha Brotherton, what makes anyone think he told the truth about seeing God in a grove of trees? Or that he told the truth about sword-wielding angels forcing him to marry other men's wives?

Of course, everyone lies sometimes, but I believe there is a difference between little white lies and malicious lies meant to destroy someone's credibility or coerce them into such things as plural marriage. Joseph Smith told vicious lies that hurt people - that ruined their lives. Why would anyone trust his claims that he was a prophet of God? He couldn't be counted on to tell the truth to his own wife, why should anyone trust him to tell the truth to anyone else? And even if he were "speaking as a man" when he lied, shouldn't a man who supposedly spoke one-on-one with God be held to a higher standard of accountability than people who haven't had the privilege of seeing God?

KA

All valid points, without a doubt... but here's the thing:

It doesn't matter how trustworthy, credible, and squeaky clean your background is; if you tell me you went into the forest and saw god, I'm going to think you're a liar. The fact that Joseph Smith was known for dishonesty isn't even central to whether or not we should consider valid this particular truth claim. It's just licked icing on the cake.

[_KimberlyAnn]

All valid points, without a doubt... but here's the thing:

It doesn't matter how trustworthy, credible, and squeaky clean your background is; if you tell me you went into the forest and saw god, I'm going to think you're a liar. The fact that Joseph Smith was known for dishonesty isn't even central to whether or not we should consider valid this particular truth claim. It's just licked icing on the cake.

I agree. I wouldn't believe anyone who told me that, either - now. But, at one time, I did believe just such a thing. I believed Joseph Smith. It took me uncovering his lies for me to finally figure out that he was untrustworthy and not a prophet at all. His lies were my first clue that Mormonism wasn't what it claimed to be.

KA

[_Polygamy Porter]

[mopoogist mode on]

He was lying for the lord. The lord NEEDED polygamy restored then and there, but his timing was a bit off...

The lord knew that the general public was not ready for 36 year old men screwing teen aged girls.

So he commanded old Joe to protect the principle.

It really wasn't lying if the lord commanded him to do it.

Did Nephi murder Laban? No, he was commanded to kill him.

[mopoogist mode off]

[_CaliforniaKid]

You people don't seriously think we should expect a prophet to live up to some kind of moral standard, do you?

[_Polygamy Porter]

You people don't seriously think we should expect a prophet to live up to some kind of moral standard, do you?

<mopologist mode=on>
Silly Cali kid, he lived a higher standard!

He was talking with Jesus and God on a daily basis! They all were on a first name basis, in fact.

See Joe was just doing what he was told.

<insert related biblical verse/story to scare the doubting Mormon or challenging christian>

Besides, at the end of the world it is all about Joe restoring the truth. everything else pales. He did no worse than Nephi when he hacked off the head of a defenseless drunk man.

<mopologist mode=off>

[_KimberlyAnn]

You people don't seriously think we should expect a prophet to live up to some kind of moral standard, do you?

Yes, I think a prophet should live up to high moral standards, which, according to my former Bishop, is quite unfortunate. But I'm a fundamentalist black and white thinker so I just can't help myself, I guess.

KA

[_sailgirl7]

You people don't seriously think we should expect a prophet to live up to some kind of moral standard, do you?

Yes, I think a prophet should live up to high moral standards, which, according to my former Bishop, is quite unfortunate. But I'm a fundamentalist black and white thinker so I just can't help myself, I guess.

KA

KA,

I get accused of being a black and white thinker- a lot. I have been told it's my downfall. My "fundamentalist" attitude is what has led me astray of the church apparently. I just can't accept the lies, distortations, inconsistancies, and morally unacceptable things that are a part of the church doctrine and history. You see, I am the bad one when I point out things that are disturbing. I am "seeking to destroy the church" when I question it. This is what I hear all the time. From people I love- like my husband. Who incidentally, has looked me in the eyes and lied to me more than once. I guess the whole thing about calling "good" evil and evil "good"- is what really gets to me. I mean- if you accuse Joseph Smith of something bad- you are the bad one. I don't understand that. I'm not one of the lucky one's who can retain my faith despite everything. I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, commit adultary, don't even watch rated "R" movies, I stay at home, raise my children, invite neighbors into my home, do my calling (visiting teaching coordinater), etc, but because I am no longer "active" in the church- I am evil. I guess I will go to hell- it can't really be that bad considering.

[_The Nehor]

You people don't seriously think we should expect a prophet to live up to some kind of moral standard, do you?

No, I don't. I think the standard is the same for everyone.

[_CaliforniaKid]

You people don't seriously think we should expect a prophet to live up to some kind of moral standard, do you?

No, I don't. I think the standard is the same for everyone.

And if I started lying to my wife (and to the public) about all my other wives, that would be okay? I'd still be a true Christian?