The irony of forever families charade to never mo families

[_skippy the dead]

Oh those poor women......who were they?

My mom. She joined when I was one; my dad had no interest. She was counseled by two different bishops to divorce him and find a Mormon to marry. She was also told by other leaders that if she lived righteously enough, his heart would soften (i.e., he was hard-hearted) and he would join. When he didn't, she blamed herself (and there was no lack of "righteousness" on her part). I was told that if I was a good enough example, he would join (my siblings were also told the same thing); we were the best examples we could be, and felt as though we failed our father when he did not join. Not nice making kids feel responsible for their father's spiritual health.

So despite Nehor's many happy endings, this situation is real and the women (and their children) do suffer for it.

[_moksha]

Or maybe the person is just dumb and would be dumb in any given situation.

Quit talkin' about me.

[_Some Schmo]

Yes, of course, a person can be dumb no matter what the situation is, or what he/she believes. You're missing the point.

The point is that the church actively exacerbates the problem of personal stupidity.

Please give me a few examples.

Thanks.

Most examples that I can think of off the top of my head have to do with choices encouraged by the church:

- Trusting feelings over logic and sense
- Young men and women getting married as soon as possible
- Families encouraged to have abnormally large families without the means to properly provide for them
- Paying tithing despite not really being able to afford it under the premise "God will provide"
- Young men encouraged to spend their life savings to that point on a rather dubious "mission" rather than putting that money where it should go - into an education
- Waiting till marriage to have sex (this should really be number #1)
- Waiting till marriage to live together
- Avoiding coffee like the plague because it has caffeine but not worrying about chocolate for the same reason

That's enough for now. I could go on and on, but I think you should get the point.

[_barrelomonkeys]

I don't think the Church necessarily makes people "stupid". One concern I do have about the Church is how they teach people to think critically of prophets. Before I really learned anything about LDS I'd known about the "false prophets" that have committed murders and have been offshoots of LDS. Ervil LeBaron, Jeffrey Lundgreen, and the Helzer brothers are the sort of false prophets that trouble me. I just worry that there is some way LDS are taught, discuss, consider, and think critically about what they are told in the realm of prophets.

There was a thread on MAD about a month ago asking if LDS in Utah were easy targets for scammers and the consensus seemed to suggest that LDS were a bit too trusting. This is something that troulbes me. On the one hand it's marvelous that they feel such love for their fellow man that they are trusting, and yet at the same time they need to be aware more of the dangers of those that would potentially target them for fraud.

[_Mercury]

Does it

For some maybe. But it seems leaving the Church has not really helped some of you from stupidity either. PP is a fine specimen of this.

Why is it that you always speak as if you have intimate knowledge of everyones lives?

Its kinda sad really. Do you ever think that when you minimize the damage caused by Mormonism you are simply trying to convince yourself that you did not waste your life believing in something you know not to be above board?

[_Some Schmo]

I don't think the Church necessarily makes people "stupid".

Upon reflection, I don't really think it does either; it just encourages stupid choices.

Although one could argue that they don't really encourage the kind of thinking that opens the mind and stimulates it, so maybe it does, in some measure, contribute to actual stupidity. Hard to really say for sure.

One concern I do have about the Church is how they teach people to think critically of prophets.

The problem is that they don't, in fact, teach people to think critically of prophets. Big problem. It's only the internet Mormons that allow themselves that, not the ones who are blissfully unaware of the church's sordid history.

[_Jason Bourne]

Oh those poor women......who were they?

My mom. She joined when I was one; my dad had no interest. She was counseled by two different bishops to divorce him and find a Mormon to marry. She was also told by other leaders that if she lived righteously enough, his heart would soften (I.e., he was hard-hearted) and he would join. When he didn't, she blamed herself (and there was no lack of "righteousness" on her part). I was told that if I was a good enough example, he would join (my siblings were also told the same thing); we were the best examples we could be, and felt as though we failed our father when he did not join. Not nice making kids feel responsible for their father's spiritual health.

So despite Nehor's many happy endings, this situation is real and the women (and their children) do suffer for it.

Bishops are not supposed to counsel members to divorce so these bishops were out of line.

And yes these things do happen and sometimes they do not.

[_Jason Bourne]

- Trusting feelings over logic and sense

I have never ever heard such counsel.

Young men and women getting married as soon as possible

Agreed. This one has impacted me though I have a fairly happy marriage.

- Families encouraged to have abnormally large families without the means to properly provide for them

I think the church has backed off on this.

- Paying tithing despite not really being able to afford it under the premise "God will provide"

Tithing is considered a test of faith at times.

-

Young men encouraged to spend their life savings to that point on a rather dubious "mission" rather than putting that money where it should go - into an education

I think a mission can be a wownderful life event and would never have learned what I learned as a missionary going to school. Oh and later I went to college too.

- Waiting till marriage to have sex (this should really be number #1)

I think this is a good one for the most part but could be taught better.

- Waiting till marriage to live together

Studies have proved that living togather before marriage is a dumb thing and when the couple marry are 805 more likely to divorce.

Not a bad list though.

[_Jason Bourne]

[

Why is it that you always speak as if you have intimate knowledge of everyones lives?

Two points. One you do the same damn thing. So kiss off. Second, my comments are based on how you act here.

Its kinda sad really.

This is a pot and kettle thing for you merc. Practice what you preach.

Do you ever think that when you minimize the damage caused by Mormonism you are simply trying to convince yourself that you did not waste your life believing in something you know not to be above board?

Gee did you just do what you crowed about me doing???

[Alf'Omega]

- Trusting feelings over logic and sense

I have never ever heard such counsel.

Admittedly, this one may never be spoken aloud; but it is implied, without a doubt.

- Families encouraged to have abnormally large families without the means to properly provide for them

I think the church has backed off on this.

Well, if that's the case, that's good to hear.

- Paying tithing despite not really being able to afford it under the premise "God will provide"

Tithing is considered a test of faith at times.

Well, that's the given explanation, but that doesn't mean it's smart (or stupidity avoiding).

Young men encouraged to spend their life savings to that point on a rather dubious "mission" rather than putting that money where it should go - into an education

I think a mission can be a wownderful life event and would never have learned what I learned as a missionary going to school. Oh and later I went to college too.

Being 19 is a wonderful life event. Going out on your own is a wonderful life event. No mission is necessary, and it actually delays the business of getting your adult life started.

I know a mission is good for some people, but that doesn't mean the money wouldn't be better spent on education.

- Waiting till marriage to have sex (this should really be number #1)

I think this is a good one for the most part but could be taught better.

I think a ton of marital heartache could be avoided if people know what they're getting into (sex wise) before the contract is signed. It absolutely makes no sense at all that one of the most critical aspects of any marriage is tested before the commitment is made. Important, life changing decisions should not be made without doing the necessary research.

- Waiting till marriage to live together

Studies have proved that living togather before marriage is a dumb thing and when the couple marry are 805 more likely to divorce.

Not a bad list though.

I'm curious about this study you're referencing. I'd be very surprised if the cited statistics (I'm assuming you meant "80%") are accurate. Again, it's about doing the proper research up front.

I, for example, lived with my wife for 3.5 years before marrying her. We've been together almost 16 years now and are still going strong. Anecdotal, I know, but there's no way I'd ever marry a woman without knowing what she was like to live with first.