Who is the head of the church?

[_harmony]

Gaz asks:

Does or does not Christ run this church? Who is at the head, Christ or Hinkley and the Twelve?

The church is run by men, I sustain the 15 as our leaders because there is no other alternative to sustain and someone's got to do it. However, the lack of revelations pertinent to our lives today is directly related to their lack of discernment based on their unwillingness to interact with the members and current events, and in more than one case, pride. I don't say this to be mean-spirited or cavalier. It's simply a fact of life that as people age, they lose brain cells and spark. It's also a fact of life that as we are given more, we become full of pride. Most of our leaders are simply too old and too proud to run an operation of this size efficiently and for the best for the members. Virtually all of the top 15 should be released with a vote of thanks, and get some younger blood, some people who don't think of themselves as "entitled" to run the church. Even Pres Monson is coming to end of his effective service. Let them rest; they've earned it.

I doubt that Christ or HF have been directly involved in the church at all, even at the beginning. The First Vision is a cobbled together account which may or may not have taken place. Their involvement is a given though, through answering prayers and bestowing blessings and trying to get these stubborn proud men to listen to their counsel. However, I see no reason to accept a story of their involvement, fabricated and cobbled together years after the fact in response to challenges of the day. Joseph was a gifted storyteller; I see no reason to believe he received a visit from God himself, although I can believe he told a story about such a visit though. Something happened to him, but I don't think it was a heavenly vision, at least not as he related it later. I no longer believe in Joseph's supposed divine calling as prophet. I think his divine calling was to bring forth the Book of Mormon and everything he did after that, he did on his own. I think the Book of Mormon is scripture in the same way and for the same reason I think the Bible is scripture, but I don't think either is completely God-breathed. I see man's hands all over both of them.

I believe in the restoration, but not as most LDS assume. I think that there are many things that have been lost over the ages. I don't think Joseph had a handle on most of them, though, and I think the changes the church has made since his time are blatant manifestations of his personal lack of discernment. I think he tried, but I think he traded his divine calling for sex, and we still pay for his lack of restraint today. He didn't understand who he was or what he had or what he was supposed to do, and like any immature creature, reached far beyond his capacity... and fell.

Witnesses that see through "spiritual eyes" aren't witnesses of actual events at all. Witnesses that have a vested interest in the enterprise aren't exactly unbiased observers. I don't trust the witnesses at all and I've yet to see any reason to do so. The only way I'm going to believe the church's official story about the origins of the Book of Mormon is for them to put the golden plates on display. Otherwise, I'm going with the idea that Joseph was inspired to write it, just like Peter or Paul of old.

With that in mind, why are you so choosey in the doctrines you accept and decline?

I accept doctrines for which I receive personal validation of their inspired foundation. I reject doctrines that do not pass that test. I understand the process for canonization, and feel no need to blindly accept that which is canonized, simply because some people living in the 1800's thought they were seeing valid revelation. I test everything the same way. It has never failed me yet.

[_Gazelam]

Harmony let me share a story with you that I only recently became aware of.



President Hugh B. Brown often said that President McKay was living evidence that there is a double meaning in the Doctrine and Covenants promise that says that our bodies can be renewed. "Whoso is faithful", the scripture says, "unto the obtaining these two priesthoods [speaking of both Melchizedek and Aaronic] . . . and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies" (D&C 84:33). President Brown saw him, aged and infirm, stand up in the Oakland Temple dedication, and he seemed suddenly almost young again. The deeper meaning of that sanctifying and renewing is a long-range purification of the soul, which gives not just energy for tasks in this world, but also is a preparation for a higher resurrection.

President Brown spoke of the burdens President McKay carried, and then he said, "I will give you an example. Recently my phone rang and President McKay said, "Come in." So I left my office and went into his. "President Brown," he said, "I've been searching for a counselor" (This is after the death of President Henry D. Moyle.) "I have been praying but I have not received an answer. I'm going over to the temple. I'm going to that sacred room, and I'm going to get my answer."

The inference was that he wanted President Brown to pray for him, but he did not say that specifically. president Brown continued, "Sometime later my phone rang again. President McKay said, "Come in." I went to the door and it was partly ajar and I could see him sitting behind his desk." Then president Brown said, "You know that when Moses descended from the Mount his face shone and "he wot not", which is to say he did not know that it shone. I saw that on the face of David O. McKay. When I sat down he said, "President Brown, it has been made known to me in as clear a manner as anything I've ever received of the Lord that elder N. Eldon Tanner is to enter the First Presidency." (remarks at a missionary Conference in Cambridge, Massachusetts, December 1963)

The Lord puts at the head of this church those that He chooses. Despite your feeling on the manner, these men are of a keen mind. My home teacher is a member of the local Stake Presidency, and has had these men of the Twelve in his home for dinners and meetings. One in particular made it a point to study the family photos in the hall, asking the names of everyone in them. Later on as the children came home he adressed each of them by name, having only heard them once as he looked at the photos. No dwindling mind there.

In the physical department, while traveling from a temple dedication in South America aboard the donated Marriot jet, President Hinkley enjoyed the use of a Ski machine style piece of equiptment, telling the others they should join him in excercise. This was last summer. After spending the whole day shaking hands and giving multiple dedications of the temple. The others were exhausted.

As a final example, since you seem so quick to discount the dispensation head as a fallen Prophet, I offer this testimony:

"When Joseph was ready to go back to Hiram, I took him in my carriage. Soon afterwards I had occasion to visit Hiram again. On my way there I was persuaded to stop at the Hulet Settlement and attend a meeting. When I arrived at Father Johnson's the next morning Joseph and Sidney had just finished washing up from being tarred and feathered the night before. Joseph said to sidney : "We can now go on our mission to Jackson county (aluding to a commandment given them while they were translating but which they concluded not to attend to until they had finished that work). I felt to regret very much that I had not been with them the evening before but it was perhaps providential that I was not. On a subsequent visit to Hiram I arrived at Father Johnson's just as Joseph and Sidney were coming out of the vision alluded to inj the book of Doctrine and Covenants, in which mention is made of the three glories. Joseph wore black cloths but at this time seemed to be dressed in an element of glorious white, and his face shown as if it were transparent, but I did not see the same glory attending Sidney. Joseph appeared as strong as a lion, but Sidney seemed as weak as water, and Joseph noticing his condition smiled and said: "Brother Sidney is not as used to it as I am."

As a fotnote to this; Mrs. Sarah N. Williams Reynolds, of Salt Lake City, dictated the folowing highly important statement to N. B. Lundwall: "I was a close neighbor of Philo Dibble who visited me very often. He had been very familiar and intimately acquainted with the Prophet Joseph Smith, and took great delight in rehearsing his wealth of information concerning this acquaintance. Brother Dibble stated to me that the Prophet Joseph told him in connection with the others who were present in Father Johnson's home at the time the Vision was given to the Prophet Joseph and Sidney Rigdon, that (the Prophet speaking); "My whole body was full of light and I could see even out at the ends of my fingers and toes."

The Vision came as a result of the translation of John 5:29 on Febuary 16, 1832. Was he a fallen Prophet then Harmony?

[_harmony]

The Vision came as a result of the translation of John 5:29 on Febuary 16, 1832. Was he a fallen Prophet then Harmony?

You know what I think about Joseph's stories, Gaz. Adding another to the stack does nothing to alleviate their weight.

As to the other, our leaders have lost touch with the members. They don't even make trips to the stakes anymore for stake conferences. We are as important as the dirt under their feet, unless we stop paying our tithing, and then we become really important. My stake president lives 2 miles from me. He is my friend. We talk. He hasn't seen a live GA in almost 2 years. There's no excuse for that, except (wait for it)... except that our leaders are too old to keep a travel schedule that includes visiting all the stakes at least once a year. Too old? Yes, too old to come here, too old to get on a plane and fly for less than 2 hours from SLCentral. If they're too old to come here, then they're too old to hold that position. Step down, step aside, and let some younger men take on the task. Their decisions are getting further and further from what's important; their talks are becoming more repetitious; they're stuck in the 50's and they refuse to allow the church to move into the 2000's. They're simply too damn old! They're good men, but they're simply too far past their prime to fulfill the needs of the members of a world-wide church of millions that is worth billions.

[_Gazelam]

Last year for aout four months this blogger kept a record of sightings of the Twelve. Heres a link:

http://ldsapostlesighting.blogspot.com/

[_harmony]

Last year for aout four months this blogger kept a record of sightings of the Twelve. Heres a link:

http://ldsapostlesighting.blogspot.com/

Provo and Salt Lake are hardly long distance travel, Gaz. A few temples, a trip or two to Rexsburg and Hawaii.

There are 2745 stakes, according to the latest conference report. Mine is less than 2 hours by plane from SLCentral. Take the top 100 leaders. Send them out to each stake once a year. That's 28 trips a year per leader. What's wrong with that? I'm away from my home for my job almost that often every year.

The excuse was... they were too old to travel. Well, if they're too old to travel, they're too old to do the job.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

"I was a close neighbor of Philo Dibble who visited me very often. He had been very familiar and intimately acquainted with the Prophet Joseph Smith, and took great delight in rehearsing his wealth of information concerning this acquaintance. Brother Dibble stated to me that the Prophet Joseph told him in connection with the others who were present in Father Johnson's home at the time the Vision was given to the Prophet Joseph and Sidney Rigdon, that (the Prophet speaking); "My whole body was full of light and I could see even out at the ends of my fingers and toes."

Ah, yes, Philo Dibble, the author of the meteor shower story, maybe the church's very first faith promoting rumor.

[_Inconceivable]

EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

11 The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty–first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

12 It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .

(Doctrine and Covenants | Official Declaration 1:10 - 12)



Take it or leave it.

It's all or nothing.

[_Mercury]

Their creditors.

[_Jason Bourne]

The Vision came as a result of the translation of John 5:29 on Febuary 16, 1832. Was he a fallen Prophet then Harmony?

You know what I think about Joseph's stories, Gaz. Adding another to the stack does nothing to alleviate their weight.

As to the other, our leaders have lost touch with the members. They don't even make trips to the stakes anymore for stake conferences. We are as important as the dirt under their feet, unless we stop paying our tithing, and then we become really important. My stake president lives 2 miles from me. He is my friend. We talk. He hasn't seen a live GA in almost 2 years. There's no excuse for that, except (wait for it)... except that our leaders are too old to keep a travel schedule that includes visiting all the stakes at least once a year. Too old? Yes, too old to come here, too old to get on a plane and fly for less than 2 hours from SLCentral. If they're too old to come here, then they're too old to hold that position. Step down, step aside, and let some younger men take on the task. Their decisions are getting further and further from what's important; their talks are becoming more repetitious; they're stuck in the 50's and they refuse to allow the church to move into the 2000's. They're simply too damn old! They're good men, but they're simply too far past their prime to fulfill the needs of the members of a world-wide church of millions that is worth billions.

2600 stakes divided by 15 in top leaderhip means 173 visits to stakes for each of them every year. This really is not feasable.

[_Jason Bourne]

Last year for aout four months this blogger kept a record of sightings of the Twelve. Heres a link:

http://ldsapostlesighting.blogspot.com/

Provo and Salt Lake are hardly long distance travel, Gaz. A few temples, a trip or two to Rexsburg and Hawaii.

There are 2745 stakes, according to the latest conference report. Mine is less than 2 hours by plane from SLCentral. Take the top 100 leaders. Send them out to each stake once a year. That's 28 trips a year per leader. What's wrong with that? I'm away from my home for my job almost that often every year.

The excuse was... they were too old to travel. Well, if they're too old to travel, they're too old to do the job.

If you include the 70's then yes it is more feasable.