Abrahamic Tests.... Nonsense!

[_Gazelam]

There is no closer bond than parent to child.. today. The way we parent today is a fairly modern invention. Parents of children a thousand years ago would not recognize themselves in parents today. Parents in 5000 BC (or whenever it was that Abraham was supposed to have lived) would likely not see themselves in Abraham either. They simply didn't value their children as much as we do today. They had them and women returned to working in the fields immediately; they often died in infancy, or died while children. The Mosaic law contains the commandment for children to love their parents. Why? Because children didn't!

OK, I gotta ask, where in the world did you get the root of this idea from?

[_Gazelam]

Theres a reason that following the gospel is often called "The refiners fire". With each commandment in the gospel, we are stretched and asked to grow.

The first test is to excercise faith enough to offer up a prayer in faith to receive an answer. We are asked to change any bad habits we have and become baptised and make promises and covenants. These are hard for soem people. Things like giving up smoking in order to be baptised. On my mission a girl had to get her boyfriend to move out so that she could be baptised. These are difficult things to do.

From there there are church calling. I don't know anyone that woudl atually strive to want to be a Bishop. These are hard jobs. We don't see much of this now, but many of the early saint lived the law of consecration to the fullest, selling all that they had and giving to the church.

Abrahams test of faith came because of his absolute obedience to Gods commandments he had received up until that point. This is similar to Jobs miserable state he was asked to pass through. No matter how far along we get in the gospel, God will always seek to stretch us further. It does not take a genius to discover why God would ask Abraham to sacrifice his son. The parralel is glaring.

Gaz

[_harmony]

There is no closer bond than parent to child.. today. The way we parent today is a fairly modern invention. Parents of children a thousand years ago would not recognize themselves in parents today. Parents in 5000 BC (or whenever it was that Abraham was supposed to have lived) would likely not see themselves in Abraham either. They simply didn't value their children as much as we do today. They had them and women returned to working in the fields immediately; they often died in infancy, or died while children. The Mosaic law contains the commandment for children to love their parents. Why? Because children didn't!

OK, I gotta ask, where in the world did you get the root of this idea from?

Why?

[_Gazelam]

There is no closer bond than parent to child.. today. The way we parent today is a fairly modern invention. Parents of children a thousand years ago would not recognize themselves in parents today. Parents in 5000 BC (or whenever it was that Abraham was supposed to have lived) would likely not see themselves in Abraham either. They simply didn't value their children as much as we do today. They had them and women returned to working in the fields immediately; they often died in infancy, or died while children. The Mosaic law contains the commandment for children to love their parents. Why? Because children didn't!

OK, I gotta ask, where in the world did you get the root of this idea from?

Why?

Because its unfounded, not to mention ludicrous.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaz...

Abrahams test of faith came because of his absolute obedience to Gods commandments he had received up until that point. This is similar to Jobs miserable state he was asked to pass through. No matter how far along we get in the gospel, God will always seek to stretch us further. It does not take a genius to discover why God would ask Abraham to sacrifice his son. The parralel is glaring.

So God stretches us by asking us to do horrible things? Like, kill your child? This makes no sense whatsoever Gaz!

It seems to me that Satan, or some Mob guy, would be the ones asking people to engage in horrific acts to prove obedience.

I feel quite certain God could stretch us by requiring goodness... or obeying laws that bring goodness and kindness into the world. I just do not see how killing one's child is Godly... by any stretch of the imagination!

:-)

~dancer~

[_Blixa]

There is no closer bond than parent to child.. today. The way we parent today is a fairly modern invention. Parents of children a thousand years ago would not recognize themselves in parents today. Parents in 5000 BC (or whenever it was that Abraham was supposed to have lived) would likely not see themselves in Abraham either. They simply didn't value their children as much as we do today. They had them and women returned to working in the fields immediately; they often died in infancy, or died while children. The Mosaic law contains the commandment for children to love their parents. Why? Because children didn't!

OK, I gotta ask, where in the world did you get the root of this idea from?

Why?

Because its unfounded, not to mention ludicrous.

Well other than harmony's interpretation for the necessity of Mosaic law, most of what she wrote is generally accurate. "Childhood" as we understand it is a fairly recent invention. There is a great body of work on this from various disciplines: history, sociology, anthropology and cultural theory.

I would not go as far as to say that earlier generations didn't "value" children; the value they might place upon other people might not necessarily accord much with our own.

If you're interested you could check out works like these:

Centuries of Childhood: A Social History of Family Life, Philippe y Aries

The Invention of Childhood, Hugh Cunningham

Constructing and Reconstructing Childhood, Allison James and Alan Prout

A History of Childhood: Children and Childhood in the West from Medieval to Modern Times, Colin Heywood

[_Seven]

[quote="Gazelam It does not take a genius to discover why God would ask Abraham to sacrifice his son. The parralel is glaring.

Gaz[/quote]

I don't believe in this parallel any longer like I did as a Chapel Mormon. God and Jesus are one. Issac was not divine and did not have the same mission as Jesus. Our Savior gave HIMSELF for us and could have prevented his own death. There was no reason for Isaac to be sacrificed. It was not his mission.

There are ways God can test our obedience that refines us without turning fathers into murderers.
God didn't take a knife and murder Jesus. He allowed him to die, just like He allows all kinds of horrific things to happen today. We are all God's children and He doesn't intervene to save his other tortured sons and daughters either.

[_guy sajer]

I feel quite certain God could stretch us by requiring goodness... or obeying laws that bring goodness and kindness into the world.

Wow, that's powerful insight. I couldn't agree more.

If all the laws and prophets hang on the injunction to "love thy neighbor as thyself," wouldn't the ultimate test of our love for God be the extent to which we embodied this injunction? No killing of one's children, no slaying all the inhabitants (including animals) of conquered cities, no (oh so reluctantly, wink wink) taking lascivious lassies to bed, no loving of sinners but really, really hating the sin (yeah, right) to prove our devotion to God, but actually treating others with respect, consideration, and charity that we ourselves would expect. Now that's revolutionary.

Perhaps if this were emphasized a bit more, Mormonism (and dogmatic religion in general) would lose a bit of its obsession with what people wear, who they are having sex with, and who they are obeying as the center of its moral universe.