Claiming you know Vs. actually Knowing

[_Mercury]

Overlooking the Bednar thread the irritating assurance of knowledge concerning the unknowable makes me uneasy. Remember folks, just because you say something is known by you does not make it true.

The Mormon method of proving something true is an exercise in circular reasoning and convincing oneself that obvious contradictions do not exist. Saying that you know joe saw god in the grove does not make it so. The ONLY thing that makes it so is hard evidence. Emotional experiences do not confirm truth. They just confirm that there was a shift in your brain chemistry, an easy thing to induce in a gullible party.

[_Sam Harris]

I don't understand why you have to know anyways. And I think that the preoccupation with "knowing" when faced with the facts in the case of the LDS church is what causes so much friction. If the LDS church could just stick to "we believe" and stay with that, I think there'd be a lot less trouble.

Faith isn't something to be known in my opinion, it's something to be felt by those who choose to, and also in my opinion, in different ways. Placing God in a box is for a different discussion.

[_Mercury]

I don't understand why you have to know anyways. And I think that the preoccupation with "knowing" when faced with the facts in the case of the LDS church is what causes so much friction. If the LDS church could just stick to "we believe" and stay with that, I think there'd be a lot less trouble.

Faith isn't something to be known in my opinion, it's something to be felt by those who choose to, and also in my opinion, in different ways. Placing God in a box is for a different discussion.

Faith in a God is a useless construct to the individual. Faith is useful to those who profit off of it, those in religion, organised religion or otherwise.

Humanity is screwed until we depart from the useless behavior in believing things unseen. Until we ditch faith we cannot progress as a species.

[_Sam Harris]

Do you have a plan we can work with? I do not rely on faith, per se. I don't really have anything at all to rely on. I think its useless to rely on things, because one can become atrophied in many ways. Intercommunity is a good thing, but interdependence can be dangerous.

Edit: Things unseen....I cannot see this blood clot in my head, but I believe it is there. If I use your logic, I might die. I think that sometimes belief in things that we cannot immediately touch is valuable. I can only touch my perception of God with my heart, but for me that is ok. Your heart has been damaged, you need to deal with that instead of attacking all of spirituality. You'll never take the spirit out of man, Mercury.

But back to my orignial question. I understand that the religion you belonged to for most of your life did much damage to you. The real world is not like that. Fundamentalism exists within all religions, but there are many thinking human beings who do not just do as they're told by their religious leaders. They want the responsibility of determining their own destinies as much as they percieve God to be the co-creators of them.

What is your plan for us, Mercury, since religion is the only evil?

[_Mercury]

Do you have a plan we can work with? I do not rely on faith, per se. I don't really have anything at all to rely on. I think its useless to rely on things, because one can become atrophied in many ways. Intercommunity is a good thing, but interdependence can be dangerous.

Edit: Things unseen....I cannot see this blood clot in my head, but I believe it is there. If I use your logic, I might die. I think that sometimes belief in things that we cannot immediately touch is valuable. I can only touch my perception of God with my heart, but for me that is ok. Your heart has been damaged, you need to deal with that instead of attacking all of spirituality. You'll never take the spirit out of man, Mercury.

But back to my orignial question. I understand that the religion you belonged to for most of your life did much damage to you. The real world is not like that. Fundamentalism exists within all religions, but there are many thinking human beings who do not just do as they're told by their religious leaders. They want the responsibility of determining their own destinies as much as they percieve God to be the co-creators of them.

What is your plan for us, Mercury, since religion is the only evil?

Rational thought has been around for a while now. It works better than reliance on an unseen, unknowable unquantifiable "whatever" that those in religion have constructed elaborate (yes, even the "simple" explanations are elaborate) stories around to ensure they are not afraid of dying.

But if you like fairy tales that make you sleep at night because you have an irrational fear of the unknown (what happens after you die) then I guess there is utility in faith. That being said, its still pretty useless.

Here is the thing GIMR, the blood clot in your head exists. This can be proven. Gods existence is unprovable, therefore there is an extremely high probability that he does not exist. Fairy tales and laughable embellished halucinations do not count as evidence.

God is dead, thank goodness.

[_Sam Harris]

Merc, can you see love?

[_Sam Harris]

Second post:

I personally cannot see the blood clot in my head, and for that matter, my neurologist can't see it that well either, but the symptoms all point in the same direction. But what if they're wrong? So much for your rationale.

Merc, why the need to abuse those who embrace what you reject? Again, you are never going to take the spirit out of mankind.

And WHERE is your plan? I asked if you had a solution to religion, and all you gave me was a tirade. People who have spiritual lives are not irrational babies who suck their god-thumbs at night. And just because you had a horrible experience doesn't give you the right to blanket all spiritual mankind like that. You can either wake up from your post-mormon nightmare and actually deal on equal terms with people who aren't Mormon and who aren't fundamentalist EVs or the extremist Muslims you see on TV who validate you, or you can sit in your misery. But you'll only have PP for a bedmate, and sooner or later you'll grow tired of one another.

So what was that plan again?

[_Sam Harris]

Do you have a plan we can work with? I do not rely on faith, per se. I don't really have anything at all to rely on. I think its useless to rely on things, because one can become atrophied in many ways. Intercommunity is a good thing, but interdependence can be dangerous.

Edit: Things unseen....I cannot see this blood clot in my head, but I believe it is there. If I use your logic, I might die. I think that sometimes belief in things that we cannot immediately touch is valuable. I can only touch my perception of God with my heart, but for me that is ok. Your heart has been damaged, you need to deal with that instead of attacking all of spirituality. You'll never take the spirit out of man, Mercury.

But back to my orignial question. I understand that the religion you belonged to for most of your life did much damage to you. The real world is not like that. Fundamentalism exists within all religions, but there are many thinking human beings who do not just do as they're told by their religious leaders. They want the responsibility of determining their own destinies as much as they percieve God to be the co-creators of them.

What is your plan for us, Mercury, since religion is the only evil?

Rational thought has been around for a while now. It works better than reliance on an unseen, unknowable unquantifiable "whatever" that those in religion have constructed elaborate (yes, even the "simple" explanations are elaborate) stories around to ensure they are not afraid of dying.

But if you like fairy tales that make you sleep at night because you have an irrational fear of the unknown (what happens after you die) then I guess there is utility in faith. That being said, its still pretty useless.

Here is the thing GIMR, the blood clot in your head exists. This can be proven. Gods existence is unprovable, therefore there is an extremely high probability that he does not exist. Fairy tales and laughable embellished halucinations do not count as evidence.

God is dead, thank goodness.

I wanted to add one more thing. I could actually die soon, the verdict isn't in. I'm not wondering what happens, I'm not sure, and I'm not scared. I'm resigned to what may be. It's called faith. You, Merc, are the person who is in agony. After all that I have been through, I finally have peace, and if it is soon time for me to go at the age of 26 (tomorrow), then so be it, it doesn't matter to me what I see when I leave here, or if I see anything at all. My faith is a tool for learning how to be a good person. It is you that is scared, because you still believe deep down inside in the all or nothing of the LDS church.

Don't joke around with another person's mortality just because you had a s****y Mormon childhood. I had a s****y non-religious childhood which is probably the reason why my body is failing me now, but I'm ok with possibly leaving here because I've spent a quater of a century paying for the sins of my parents. It is what it is. I'm at peace. I hope that some day you will come to experience the same. I have learned to take what joy I can out of what I have left, be it one year or 60. You, however pose a pitiful picture.

Frightened of what comes after death, indeed. Come sit here in my body with this heart that beats like a mouse's and a brain that can't pump blood through it properly at this age and tell me how you would feel. Me, I'm not scared at all.

[_sailgirl7]

I wanted to add one more thing. I could actually die soon, the verdict isn't in. I'm not wondering what happens, I'm not sure, and I'm not scared. I'm resigned to what may be. It's called faith. You, Merc, are the person who is in agony. After all that I have been through, I finally have peace, and if it is soon time for me to go at the age of 26 (tomorrow), then so be it, it doesn't matter to me what I see when I leave here, or if I see anything at all. My faith is a tool for learning how to be a good person. It is you that is scared, because you still believe deep down inside in the all or nothing of the LDS church.

Don't joke around with another person's mortality just because you had a s****y Mormon childhood. I had a s****y non-religious childhood which is probably the reason why my body is failing me now, but I'm ok with possibly leaving here because I've spent a quater of a century paying for the sins of my parents. It is what it is. I'm at peace. I hope that some day you will come to experience the same. I have learned to take what joy I can out of what I have left, be it one year or 60. You, however pose a pitiful picture.

Frightened of what comes after death, indeed. Come sit here in my body with this heart that beats like a mouse's and a brain that can't pump blood through it properly at this age and tell me how you would feel. Me, I'm not scared at all.

Wow, GIMR- it sounds like you are going through a lot right now. You sound very brave in face of the unkown. You are rare indeed. I think I've read most of your posts- although I've never chatted directly with you- but I think you are a beautiful person- and if I still lived back in Northern VA- I would want to meet you. You are an inspiration. I hope all is well for you and that you can continue your journey here in health and peace.

Sincerely,
Sailgirl7

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

I wanted to add one more thing. I could actually die soon, the verdict isn't in. I'm not wondering what happens, I'm not sure, and I'm not scared. I'm resigned to what may be. It's called faith. You, Merc, are the person who is in agony. After all that I have been through, I finally have peace, and if it is soon time for me to go at the age of 26 (tomorrow), then so be it, it doesn't matter to me what I see when I leave here, or if I see anything at all. My faith is a tool for learning how to be a good person. It is you that is scared, because you still believe deep down inside in the all or nothing of the LDS church.

Don't joke around with another person's mortality just because you had a s****y Mormon childhood. I had a s****y non-religious childhood which is probably the reason why my body is failing me now, but I'm ok with possibly leaving here because I've spent a quater of a century paying for the sins of my parents. It is what it is. I'm at peace. I hope that some day you will come to experience the same. I have learned to take what joy I can out of what I have left, be it one year or 60. You, however pose a pitiful picture.

Frightened of what comes after death, indeed. Come sit here in my body with this heart that beats like a mouse's and a brain that can't pump blood through it properly at this age and tell me how you would feel. Me, I'm not scared at all.

Bless your heart, whatever kind of faith has brought you this kind of peace is to be applauded.