Claiming you know Vs. actually Knowing

[_Mercury]

Merc, can you see love?

Yes I can, otherwise I would not be able to love another person. With all due respect this "can you see love" game is taking an experience we all have had, something more tangible than some hokey man in the sky and turning it into a poorly designed bit of pseudo-logic.

Can you see god? No you cannot. But yes, you can see love. I can see it in the eyes of my child when I come home from work. I can see it in the actions of others. God is nowhere. There is no such thing as God. The sooner one comes to this realization the sooner one becomes able to take control of their lives and not blame or praise a nonexistent entity based on the chance occurrences of life.

Merc, I'm sorry but you are wrong. You cannot see love. You can only see the effects of it. There goes all your rationale.

I guess the act of you stating this makes my statement null and changes my perception. But seriously, this is the kind of bull i'm talking about. Gotta get rid of that tendency to transition thought to reality and believe that you have changed anything but your perception of the matter. I still see love and you think im full of s***. Maybe if you stare at something and go NENENENENENENE real loud while holding your fingers to your temples you can move whatever it is you are staring at. You and diarrheatangent can be psychics!

But seriously, I can see love. I can feel love. I see love every time my wife and I are intimate. Now that's love.

[_Mercury]

GOd could have created us with a God gene.

Wow... cruelest cosmic joke ever.

Nah. God could have created us with an atheist gene instead.

;)

Most of us have this. It just is not used to its full potential. The developed frontal lobe is the Atheist gene expressing itself.

[_Mercury]

Mercury, whenever you get done congratulating yourself as the sole presenter of "facts and reality," I'd appreciate it if you'd actually engage the discussion with something more than assertions. It is easy to claim you're following science and presenting "facts," but it is another thing to actually demonstrate it. I presented the scientist who first postulated this God gene theory and he disagrees with just about everything you've been rambling about. He asserts that a belief in God is beneficial to the individual, contrary to your view. So far you've ignored everything I have presented and have chosen to maintain this back and forth "no it isn't - yes it is" squabble with GIMR.

It is also absurd to assert that theists are theists for fear of hell. Some religions don't even believe in hell. I suspect most theists are theists not because it is some primitive gene defect as you like to presume, but because life really is a mystery and humans want to believe there is a purpose to it. Again, you never responded to the "fact" that we cannot see electrons, but scientists believe they exist because it conveniently explains why material objects don’t fall through out hands. Likewise, we cannot see God, but his/her/its existence conveniently explains a lot about the beauty in the world we live in; things science has not been able to explain. It is truly difficult for some people to sit and wonder at the amazing world we live in and not conclude it was by intelligent design. Some of the most intelligent and influential humans who ever lived are/were theists.

There is absolutely zero evidence that belief in God is merely an evolutionary defect that is gradually being squeezed out, so stop ranting about how you're the only one living in reality and presenting facts. One man's fact is another man's comic relief. Your reductionist approach to religion is hardly impressive, and in fact, comes across as defective as any other defunct mental process.

And ultimately, you’ve presented yourself as an arrogant prick who seems to be upset that others don’t believe as you do (sound familiar?). You resort to insults while pretending you didn’t mean to, and you are even taking this Hitleresque approach that asserts you’re a member of an elite class of humans (I.e. more evolved) simply because you don’t believe in God.

Of course, your rants would be more credible if you would at least accurately represent the science you claim to respect so much.

You have abandoned all hope on this thread, I see. When will you reply to Guy's critique of your post? Why are you avoiding the difficult corner you have painted yourself into?

[_Gazelam]

Hows this for a reproducible experiment. Thousands of people every year simply kneel and pray and get an answer from God that he is there. They take Moronis promise and put it to the test and get an unmistakable result as promised by a prophet of God. It happens all the time, and is completely seperate from any mere emotion. It is God himself answering a prayer and leading someone to the fountain of revelation.

And you know it.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Hows this for a reproducible experiment. Thousands of people every year simply kneel and pray and get an answer from God that he is there. They take Moronis promise and put it to the test and get an unmistakable result as promised by a prophet of God. It happens all the time, and is completely seperate from any mere emotion. It is God himself answering a prayer and leading someone to the fountain of revelation.

And you know it.

Please stop marching this dead horse out for your dog and pony show. We shot the dog long ago and ate the pony, k?

Millions of people every year kneel and pray and get an answer from Allah. Does that make Allah the "true" god over the Mormon Elohim?

Either way your argument is dead, eaten and crapped out.

[_harmony]

Millions of people every year kneel and pray and get an answer from Allah. Does that make Allah the "true" god over the Mormon Elohim?

This doesn't negate the answer the others got, nor does it negate the idea that God, in some form, exists. You're saying because God/Allah answers prayers, he doesn't exist?

Either way your argument is dead, eaten and crapped out.

Unnecessary.

[_dartagnan]

You have abandoned all hope on this thread, I see. When will you reply to Guy's critique of your post? Why are you avoiding the difficult corner you have painted yourself into?

I responded to Guy's "critique" on the other thread, and I prefer his approach much more than yours. He has yet to make the dogmatic assertions that you have adopted. Why are you spastically creating thread after thread discussing the same topic? Stop running from counter arguments and relying on others to bail you out. You are the one creating this stink, so be a man, stick around and be held accountable for your own arguments. Back them up with the science you claim to appreciate. So far you haven't scientifically backed up any of your off the wall assertions, and I think we all know why.

You can't.

[_Some Schmo]

Hows this for a reproducible experiment. Thousands of people every year simply kneel and pray and get an answer from God that he is there. They take Moronis promise and put it to the test and get an unmistakable result as promised by a prophet of God. It happens all the time, and is completely seperate from any mere emotion. It is God himself answering a prayer and leading someone to the fountain of revelation.

And you know it.

As Michael Shermer pointed out, you cannot just count the supposed hits; you must also count the misses when doing your experiments. I think it's safe to say that given the number of people that have been presented with the LDS idea compared to the number of people who have had this experience you're talking about, the evidence points to a great big false.

And you cannot prove that what you're feeling is "completely separate from any mere emotion." You just want it to be.

[_dartagnan]

Hows this for a reproducible experiment. Thousands of people every year simply kneel and pray and get an answer from God that he is there. They take Moronis promise and put it to the test and get an unmistakable result as promised by a prophet of God.

The claim that this is "unmistakeble" is somewhat mitigated by the fact that most people who get on their knees and pray, don't get that answer. But more importantly, a good chunk of those who get baptized, end up leaving the faith within a few years, proving that their membership was just one of many social experiments - just like most religions.

It happens all the time, and is completely seperate from any mere emotion. It is God himself answering a prayer and leading someone to the fountain of revelation.

That alone doesn't wash. It is emotion, because we tell investigators they'll feel love, peace, joy, longsuffering, etc. We always asked the investigator how he/she "felt" after a prayer. We never asked them what they thought or reasoned. Again, most people who pray about the Book of Mormon don't get that confirmation, and I'd venture to say that the majority of those who do, end up falling away and talking about how their "answer" from God could have very well been an emotional spurt. I'd say that most people who join the Church, do so while already wanting the Church to be true.

I served a mission and we told investigators that they'd feel a burning in their bosom. Not figuratively, literally. Anyone who wants to join a social group will do whatever needed to be admitted, and if feeling a burning sensation is required, then that is something the human body can will upon itself.

[_Mercury]

You have abandoned all hope on this thread, I see. When will you reply to Guy's critique of your post? Why are you avoiding the difficult corner you have painted yourself into?

I responded to Guy's "critique" on the other thread, and I prefer his approach much more than yours. He has yet to make the dogmatic assertions that you have adopted. Why are you spastically creating thread after thread discussing the same topic? Stop running from counter arguments and relying on others to bail you out. You are the one creating this stink, so be a man, stick around and be held accountable for your own arguments. Back them up with the science you claim to appreciate. So far you haven't scientifically backed up any of your off the wall assertions, and I think we all know why.

You can't.

I guess I should assume your a dumb s***. Now that I have done that the whole "prove it" your waving around is null. Even if I "proved it" you'd still wait in the wings for the second you post your snarky, useless reply and demand I rely IMMEDIATELY. This tactic buys you points with the Mercury haters but it still makes you look like an ass.

And im not going to reply to fifteen different issues. Why not do what everyone else does and post a few points and wait for a reply. It might come in a day and it might come five minutes after you post. Maybe at that point I wont see you as a smug dick and craft a reply to your blathering pseudoscientific rants.

Why don't you use your ESP and tell me what I am doing right now?