A different angle: Validity of mainstream Mormons

[_Jason Bourne]

While watching Lifting the Veil of Polygamy I had a thought.

Perhaps our discussions and arguments with the defenders here are focusing on the wrong point in the timeline of Mormonism.

We need to stop arguing about everything prior to the 1890 manifesto.

Should we not be focusing on whether the mainstream LDS church is in apostasy first?

Should we not be dissecting the statements of Wilford Woodruff to determine if he was wrong?

This might actually be interesting. Where should we start?

[_Jason Bourne]

So what's the deal on the "same" never-changing God? If God keeps moving the line, how do you know where to stand or what to stand for?

Are Blacks worthy to hold the Priesthood or not? Is the Curse of Cain doctrine still intact? Were Blacks less valiant in the preexistence or not? Does the preexistence still exist? If so, are today's preexisting Blacks now more valiant?

Stuff like that...

Jersey Girl

Regarding this, you should understand that Mormon's always believed God would one day grant the priesthood to the blacks. The timing was in dispute and the reasons for it were long debated.

[_Polygamy Porter]

While watching Lifting the Veil of Polygamy I had a thought.

Perhaps our discussions and arguments with the defenders here are focusing on the wrong point in the timeline of Mormonism.

We need to stop arguing about everything prior to the 1890 manifesto.

Should we not be focusing on whether the mainstream LDS church is in apostasy first?

Should we not be dissecting the statements of Wilford Woodruff to determine if he was wrong?

This might actually be interesting. Where should we start?

Lets go with the FLDS to start it off.

Prove that they are wrong.

[_Jason Bourne]

While watching Lifting the Veil of Polygamy I had a thought.

Perhaps our discussions and arguments with the defenders here are focusing on the wrong point in the timeline of Mormonism.

We need to stop arguing about everything prior to the 1890 manifesto.

Should we not be focusing on whether the mainstream LDS church is in apostasy first?

Should we not be dissecting the statements of Wilford Woodruff to determine if he was wrong?

This might actually be interesting. Where should we start?

Lets go with the FLDS to start it off.

Prove that they are wrong.

I am not sure it can be proved one way or the other.

It hinges on whether Wilford was correct in doing away with polygamy.

Of course since I think polygamy was a mistake I am rather pleased Wilford ended it.

However, it seems that it went out only after LDS leaders fought tooth and nail.

President Woodruff could not get approval of the manifesto and so when all but I think four of the 12 were out of town he published in the paper.

But even with that document seems to be full of loop holes and thus many continued with it.

Certainly the LDS Church from Joseph Smith and BY and Pres Woodruff taught polygamy was crucial for exaltation and becoming Gods.

But the real question is did Pres Woodruff have the rigth to end it.

I think he had that right.

[_Polygamy Porter]

While watching Lifting the Veil of Polygamy I had a thought.

Perhaps our discussions and arguments with the defenders here are focusing on the wrong point in the timeline of Mormonism.

We need to stop arguing about everything prior to the 1890 manifesto.

Should we not be focusing on whether the mainstream LDS church is in apostasy first?

Should we not be dissecting the statements of Wilford Woodruff to determine if he was wrong?

This might actually be interesting. Where should we start?

Lets go with the FLDS to start it off.

Prove that they are wrong.

I am not sure it can be proved one way or the other.

It hinges on whether Wilford was correct in doing away with polygamy.

Of course since I think polygamy was a mistake I am rather pleased Wilford ended it.

However, it seems that it went out only after LDS leaders fought tooth and nail.

President Woodruff could not get approval of the manifesto and so when all but I think four of the 12 were out of town he published in the paper.

But even with that document seems to be full of loop holes and thus many continued with it.

Certainly the LDS Church from Joseph Smith and BY and Pres Woodruff taught polygamy was crucial for exaltation and becoming Gods.

But the real question is did Pres Woodruff have the rigth to end it.

I think he had that right.

He had that right as a man?

If we look at how he played it out, he forced the hand of the members to avoid blame.

He basically said that in a conversation with Jesus, that it would be left up to the members. If they chose to continue it then the temples would be destroyed and thereby stopping temple work... DO WE WANT TO STOP TEMPLE WORK? asked Wilford

I guess god has softened up in his old age... back in the Bible days Elohim and Jesus would have saved this "holy" practice and brought death and destruction upon those who opposed it...

It is amazing for me to see you believing that the removal of polygamy was divine.

[_Jason Bourne]

He had that right as a man?

If we look at how he played it out, he forced the hand of the members to avoid blame.

He basically said that in a conversation with Jesus, that it would be left up to the members. If they chose to continue it then the temples would be destroyed and thereby stopping temple work... DO WE WANT TO STOP TEMPLE WORK? asked Wilford

I guess god has softened up in his old age... back in the Bible days Elohim and Jesus would have saved this "holy" practice and brought death and destruction upon those who opposed it...

It is amazing for me to see you believing that the removal of polygamy was divine.

I did not say that I believed the removal was divine. I do not believe its initiation was divine. But I do believe the removal of it was the right thing and the smart thing. The LDS Church would not have flourished as it has and it would be more a hiss and a by word as are the FLDS and other such groups.

[_Polygamy Porter]

He had that right as a man?

If we look at how he played it out, he forced the hand of the members to avoid blame.

He basically said that in a conversation with Jesus, that it would be left up to the members. If they chose to continue it then the temples would be destroyed and thereby stopping temple work... DO WE WANT TO STOP TEMPLE WORK? asked Wilford

I guess god has softened up in his old age... back in the Bible days Elohim and Jesus would have saved this "holy" practice and brought death and destruction upon those who opposed it...

It is amazing for me to see you believing that the removal of polygamy was divine.

I did not say that I believed the removal was divine. I do not believe its initiation was divine. But I do believe the removal of it was the right thing and the smart thing. The LDS Church would not have flourished as it has and it would be more a hiss and a by word as are the FLDS and other such groups.

Yet much of the theology which you believe is based on the history of Mormon polygamy.

The temple ceremony, temple marriage, and garments are products of Joseph attempting to keep polygamy hidden.

How can one denounce polygamy and still believe in the byproducts of it?

Do you believe LDS to be a divine church?

The only divine church on earth?

Or are you willing to agree it is really nothing more than another christian based church started by men?

[_Jason Bourne]

Yet much of the theology which you believe is based on the history of Mormon polygamy.

The temple ceremony, temple marriage, and garments are products of Joseph attempting to keep polygamy hidden.

How can one denounce polygamy and still believe in the byproducts of it?

I guess I am more of a fan of pre 1838 LDS Doctrine then I am of post 1838.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Yet much of the theology which you believe is based on the history of Mormon polygamy.

The temple ceremony, temple marriage, and garments are products of Joseph attempting to keep polygamy hidden.

How can one denounce polygamy and still believe in the byproducts of it?

I guess I am more of a fan of pre 1838 LDS Doctrine then I am of post 1838.

Very similar to how my wife felt 2 1/2 years ago.

She is out of the church now. Give it some time Jason.

I'd start sharing your feelings with your children now. Don't just drop a bomb on them.

[_The Nehor]

I think it would be more advisable to ask God if Wilford Woodruff was wrong. Otherwise by what standard do you judge apostasy?

That asking God thing apparently leads some people to one conclusion and others to another. Not a method with a good track record.
Don't FLDS ask God too?

*internet crickets chirping in the direction of Nehor*

If by obeying God you mean doing only what FEELS right, then yes, the track record sucks. You're engaged in a twisted form of self-worship when God ends up liking everything you like and disliking everything you dislike.

I find it bracing and refreshing when God tells me I'm wrong regularly and often.

(Note to PP: I think you need to feed those crickets)