The Brights Movement: An Exercise in Self-Aggrandizement

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_asbestosman
_Emeritus
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Post by _asbestosman »

KimberlyAnn wrote:YOU believe there is a higher principle involved in someone joining Mormonism, but I'm sure stalwart Jewish parents who's son decided to become Mormon wouldn't see it that way.

Correct, which is why I try to judge it based upon what the convert thinks. If a Mormon converts to Judaism I won't hold it against him.
So it's fine to break promises made to other religions, but not fine to break the promises made to the Mormon church, even if they were made under duress?

No. If you convert to another religion I'm fine with it. I'm even fine with leaving for atheism if you truly believe it is the correct answer.
And why do you think joining your church entails some kind of higher moral principle? Why are you right and everyone else wrong?

Again, I don't mean to imply that my judgment should be the basis for what a higher principle is. I think it should be in the estimation of the individual person. That way even if they are wrong they still get the benefit of doing what they truly believe is correct. I think that is most important.

And what the hell? Do really think people suddenly decide to become gay?

No.
It is a higher moral principle to be true to one's self than to keep coerced promises made to a weird religion started by an adulterous, lying criminal!

Well, at least I think it's a higher moral principle to have a healthy sense of self-esteem. If the promises made keep from that, then perhaps it is best to break them.

I'm sure you think I should leave the church over their stance on homosexuality, but I'm doing the best I can to reconcile my understanding of ethics with the commandments as I understand them from the church. Do see a better way of remaining a faithful member but yet having a better view on this? I'm not trying to annoy you. I assure you that I do not fear homosexual marriage and granting them all the rights of a married couple. Even so, I am trying to reconcile that with my belief in the church. I am not ready to throw out belief over this issue. So again, perhaps you know someone who has a better way of reconciling them without me leaving the church and preferrably without contradicting the church's pronouncements about avoiding said behavior?

Perhaps I am wrong about keeping promises made to a group after leaving that group. I agree that I don't want people to be suicidal or depressed about those promises. Still, something seems wrong about being able to break them just because one now believes the group to be fraudlent.

Tell you what. Perhaps you can get some of the philosophical types to persuade me. Perhaps Tarski or Gadianton.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Who Knows
_Emeritus
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Post by _Who Knows »

asbestosman wrote:Perhaps I am wrong about keeping promises made to a group after leaving that group. I agree that I don't want people to be suicidal or depressed about those promises. Still, something seems wrong about being able to break them just because one now believes the group to be fraudlent.

Tell you what. Perhaps you can get some of the philosophical types to persuade me. Perhaps Tarski or Gadianton.


I agree with most of what you say. However, I think the problem is YOU are the one judging whether the person broke the promise towards a 'higher moral principle'. And that's not really up to you to decide that, is it?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_KimberlyAnn
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Post by _KimberlyAnn »

asbestosman wrote:No. If you convert to another religion I'm fine with it. I'm even fine with leaving for atheism if you truly believe it is the correct answer.


Converting to anything from Mormonism is a breaking of the covenants, or promises, made to the Mormon church, or to Mormon God, if you prefer. So which is it? On one hand you just said it's wrong to break promises to a group, even if you believe the group to be fraudulent, and on the other, you say it's fine for a Mormon to convert to another religion or even atheism! Make up your mind!


And what the hell? Do really think people suddenly decide to become gay?

No.


That's not what you just said.

Do see a better way of remaining a faithful member but yet having a better view on this?


There's no way to remain a member and support homosexual marriage. There's no way to remain a member and not toe the party line. You made promises to toe the line in the temple, remember?

Perhaps I am wrong about keeping promises made to a group after leaving that group.


You are.

*edited to add a qualifier here* I think it's alright to break promises made under duress or to a group one considers to be fraudulent, but it's not good to break promises to a group which you left but do not consider fraudulent and the promises were not made under duress. For example, if one made promises or contractual agreements to a place of employment, but then left for a new job, then it wouldn't be alright to take clients or reveal company secrets just because employment was severed. Hopefully I've made myself clear.

I agree that I don't want people to be suicidal or depressed about those promises. Still, something seems wrong about being able to break them just because one now believes the group to be fraudlent.


See? There you are contradicting yourself again. You say it's alright for members of the church to join another sect, if that's what they believe to be right, but that entails breaking promises, asbestosman. You believe people should keep promises made to a group they believe to be fraudulent, even if said promises were made under pressure! Again, which is it? Which of the statements you made do you believe to be correct, because they both can't be correct!


Tell you what. Perhaps you can get some of the philosophical types to persuade me. Perhaps Tarski or Gadianton.


That was personally insulting. Tell you what. Stop contradicting yourself and start making some sense and perhaps I can get someone more intelligent to reply to your posts. Asshole.

Oh, by the way, I'm not trying to persuade you to do anything. If you want to continue thinking in contradictions and remain in a confused fog, that's fine by me.
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

I think I say one thing but then have my words shot back at me in a different manner than I understand them. It either means that my thinking is muddled or I am terrible at communication. Either way I suppose I owe an apology. I will endeavor not to be so condescending in the future and will not discuss certain issues such as homosexuality for which I have no personal experience.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_KimberlyAnn
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Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:03 pm

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

asbestosman wrote:I think I say one thing but then have my words shot back at me in a different manner than I understand them. It either means that my thinking is muddled or I am terrible at communication. Either way I suppose I owe an apology. I will endeavor not to be so condescending in the future and will not discuss certain issues such as homosexuality for which I have no personal experience.


You only owed an apology for your insinuation that you required someone more intelligent to persuade you, though I wasn't attempting to persuade you do anything at all, asbestosman.

There's no reason to discontinue discussing issues with which you have no personal experience. We all have opinions on things we haven't experienced. I've never experienced war firsthand, but I don't feel that disqualifies me from discussing it. I'm not gay, but I feel no constraint against discussing homosexuality from my perspective as an observer.

To me it appears your thinking is a little muddled. It seems you're conflicted about Mormonism. At least that's my take on things.

Apology accepted,

KA
_DonBradley
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Post by _DonBradley »

Was the term "bright" meant to suggest intelligence? If so, it certainly is pretentious. I've never liked the term anyway, even though I've wanted some positive term for what I "am" religiously, rather than just "atheist," which defines me by what I don't believe.

I am an atheist. I could also call myself a humanist, since I emphasize human values. But some more precise terminology would be nice.

Don
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