Recent press release from the LDS church.

[_Who Knows]

Want to try again?

No thanks. You can play your game without me.

[_mentalgymnast]

Want to try again?

No thanks. You can play your game without me.

I don't see it as a game. Undercutting the goodness/decency of men that have dedicated their lives to spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world and making honest attempts to help members of the church perfect themselves and be happy in this life and the next is serious business indeed.

Regards,
MG

[_harmony]

In my experience over the last fifteen years or so I have not, through any official channels or organs of the church, been told to run away screaming from "anti-mormon" sources.

Then I suggest reading pg 14 of the newest New Era. The instructions there are quite clear. Or don't you consider church magazines to be official channels or organs of the church?

[_harmony]

Want to try again?

No thanks. You can play your game without me.

I don't see it as a game. Undercutting the goodness/decency of men that have dedicated their lives to spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world and making honest attempts to help members of the church perfect themselves and be happy in this life and the next is serious business indeed.

Regards,
MG

Remember who the producers of the program were, MG. This was not a church-produced program, dedicated to preserving the undeserved reverence surrounding our church leaders.

1. the goodness and decency of these men has not been established. Anyone who operates in a shadow of nondisclosure of finances hasn't established that basic goodness or decency. You may assume they are, but in reality they've done nothing to establish that beyond doubt for most of the world.

2. spreading the gospel, LDS style, isn't exactly universally acclaimed outside the Mormon world. You might want to get out of the Mormon bubble occasionally and see what the rest of the world really thinks.

3. honest attempts to help the members would result in an honest accounting of all financials. We don't have that. Without that, your declaration rings hollow.

4. No one can predict what the next life will be like, or if there even is a next life. So our leaders would be better served by helping the members attain happiness in this life, and they could start by emulating the qualities they expect from the members: honesty. And they don't.

Serious business, indeed.

[_mentalgymnast]

In my experience over the last fifteen years or so I have not, through any official channels or organs of the church, been told to run away screaming from "anti-mormon" sources.

Then I suggest reading pg 14 of the newest New Era. The instructions there are quite clear. Or don't you consider church magazines to be official channels or organs of the church?

I hadn't seen that article. I think it is very well done. Nothing about running away screaming from anti-mormon sources. Some of the comments from youth responding as "readers" lean that direction, but that's their prerogative. I like the bullet suggestions:

• Say you would rather read something you trust, like the scriptures.

• Spending a lot of time and energy reading anti-Mormon literature would be a waste.

• If you run across it, discuss it with someone who is knowledgeable about the gospel.

My note: notice that the injunction to run away screaming was not given here.

• Never take anti-Mormon literature at face value.

• Honest inquiry is good, but everything needs a proper perspective and context.

Then the article goes on to suggest that:

First, it would be a waste to spend a lot of time and energy reading it.

Second, you should never take the claims of anti-Mormon literature at face value.

Think of how you feel when you read the Book of Mormon, pray, or bear your testimony. How do those feelings compare with the feelings that come from reading anti-Mormon literature?

We’re not against honest inquiry in the Church. We welcome it. The Apostle Paul said, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”

We seem to have a host of critics. Some appear intent on trying to destroy us. They mock that which is sacred. They belittle that which we call divine. Some have said that we are trapped by our history, others have worked with great diligence seeking flaws in our early leaders.

As we continue our search for truth, particularly we of the Church, that we look for strength and goodness rather than weakness and foibles in those who did so great a work in their time.

MG: These are good suggestions. If I had a child that was showing interest in or had a friend who was trying to get them to look at a site like this, for example, I would sit down and read this article with them for beginners and then see how things evolve. Kids are going to be curious. I think this article recognizes this and is simply pointing out things to consider when investigating alternate points of view.

I find it interesting that you seem to take this article as being a call to run away screaming, so to speak, from people such as yourself.

"Some appear intent on trying to destroy us." Would this apply to you?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Want to try again?

No thanks. You can play your game without me.

I don't see it as a game. Undercutting the goodness/decency of men that have dedicated their lives to spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world and making honest attempts to help members of the church perfect themselves and be happy in this life and the next is serious business indeed.

Regards,
MG

Remember who the producers of the program were, MG. This was not a church-produced program, dedicated to preserving the undeserved reverence surrounding our church leaders.

I'm not referring to the producers of the PBS series.

Regards,
MG

[_harmony]

• Say you would rather read something you trust, like the scriptures.

The scriptures themselves can be viewed as anti-Mormon in some respects, MG. I'm sure you know this.

• Spending a lot of time and energy reading anti-Mormon literature would be a waste.

That is a judgment call. Spending a lot of time reading the Ensign or the New Era could be considered a waste, too.

• If you run across it, discuss it with someone who is knowledgeable about the gospel.

Indeed. And don't be surprised if they agree with what was just read. Just because a person is knowledgable about the gospel doesn't mean they turn a blind eye to the warts of church history.

• Never take anti-Mormon literature at face value.

Holy sheep shorts, MG. Never take Mormon literature at face value! Much of it is skewed, biased, and altogether too much of it is lies!

• Honest inquiry is good, but everything needs a proper perspective and context.

I suspect that your definition of "proper" and my definition of "proper" is too entirely different things. And keep in mind that's I'm a member in good standing, just like you are.

First, it would be a waste to spend a lot of time and energy reading it.

Second, you should never take the claims of anti-Mormon literature at face value.

Think of how you feel when you read the Book of Mormon, pray, or bear your testimony. How do those feelings compare with the feelings that come from reading anti-Mormon literature?

Feelings? Feelings that I get when reading Sec 132? Feelings that I get when reading Jacob 2? Feelings that I get when reading Matt 5? Just the facts, MG. Just give me the facts and let me make up my own mind. I suspect most average Mormons would feel the same way, given the same knowledge.

We’re not against honest inquiry in the Church. We welcome it. The Apostle Paul said, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”

That is hogwash, MG. If that was true, we'd have open books. My honest inquiry into the financials of the church are rebuffed. Why? If the church welcomed honest inquiry, I'd be sitting here with a complete financial statement for the church. I don't have it, because our church leaders choose to tell me, a tithe paying active temple recommend holding member, that my honest inquiry is not welcome.

We seem to have a host of critics. Some appear intent on trying to destroy us. They mock that which is sacred. They belittle that which we call divine. Some have said that we are trapped by our history, others have worked with great diligence seeking flaws in our early leaders.

We have a host of critics because we've gone out of our way to keep information from members and the general public. Our PR department works overtime (as witnessed by your thread). We need to own our flaws and the foolishness of our leaders as much as we own our good points and reverence our leaders. Without the flaws, we lie. Without owning all of our history and all of our leaders, we present an untrue picture to the members and the rest of the world.

As we continue our search for truth, particularly we of the Church, that we look for strength and goodness rather than weakness and foibles in those who did so great a work in their time.

And when we don't own the weakness and foibles, we present a lie. I have a difficult time living with the lies, MG. Honesty is sadly lacking in our leaders.

MG: These are good suggestions. If I had a child that was showing interest in or had a friend who was trying to get them to look at a site like this, for example, I would sit down and read this article with them for beginners and then see how things evolve. Kids are going to be curious. I think this article recognizes this and is simply pointing out things to consider when investigating alternate points of view.

I find it interesting that you seem to take this article as being a call to run away screaming, so to speak, from people such as yourself.

"Some appear intent on trying to destroy us." Would this apply to you?

Regards,
MG

My love for this church is well-documented, MG. I deplore the lack of openness on the part of our leaders, though.

[edited to correct spelling]

[_harmony]

I'm not referring to the producers of the PBS series.

Regards,
MG

Then who are you referring to?

[_mentalgymnast]

I'm not referring to the producers of the PBS series.

Regards,
MG

Then who are you referring to?

The person I was conversing with at the time.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

We have a host of critics because we've gone out of our way to keep information from members and the general public. Our PR department works overtime (as witnessed by your thread).

I think the two interviews that were posted on the church website were put there for full disclosure...not to keep information away from members or the general public.

Your comments in response to the items listed from the New Era article are interesting. You are a master at dissing!

My love for this church is well-documented, MG.

You're kidding.

Earlier in the thread you said:

I long ago came to the conclusion that God is no more at the helm of this church now than he was in 1820. I'm just waiting for the announcement from SLCentral that confirms it.

Our leaders in SLCentral cannot acknowledge that they have input from anyone; doing so would undermine their smoke and mirrors about the supposed revelations they receive on behalf of the church.

These are the words of an apostate. How can an apostate love the church that they have come to believe is smoke and mirrors?

Have you forgotten the words spoken by the first prophet of this dispensation?

I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1938]

From a site dealing with apostasy

http://www.gbwells.net/Personal%20Apostasy.htm

Victor Ludlow:

The final stage of apostasy is reached when the person gives up and becomes despondent about ever finding peace and fellowship in the Church. This bitter despondency may turn to cynical attacks against the Church or its members, including relatives and former close friends. It is plain to see how accurately Nephi describes Satan’s influence on the primrose pathway to apostasy: Others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, . . . and [he] leadeth them away carefully down to hell. And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains. (2 Ne. 28:21-22.) Not only will some people give themselves over to Satan’s influence, but they may also go one step further and actively persecute and fight against the Church. In other words, they may leave the Church, but they cannot leave it alone. (Victor L. Ludlow, Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1992], 193.)

I'm not in a position to know your heart and make any judgments. I will be the first to admit that. Your online persona, however, causes me to be concerned that you are on the high road to apostasy, if not already there. The fact that you wave a temple recommend around as the sign/proof of what you refer to as activity is meaningless.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's a duck.

Regards,
MG