Recent press release from the LDS church.

[_Yoda]

I'm not in a position to know your heart and make any judgments. I will be the first to admit that.

And that's where the buck should stop.

;)

[_harmony]

We have a host of critics because we've gone out of our way to keep information from members and the general public. Our PR department works overtime (as witnessed by your thread).

I think the two interviews that were posted on the church website were put there for full disclosure...not to keep information away from members or the general public.

Your comments in response to the items listed from the New Era article are interesting. You are a master at dissing!

Actually, I'm not a master of anything. I simply call it as I see it.

My love for this church is well-documented, MG.

You're kidding.

Earlier in the thread you said:

I long ago came to the conclusion that God is no more at the helm of this church now than he was in 1820. I'm just waiting for the announcement from SLCentral that confirms it.

Our leaders in SLCentral cannot acknowledge that they have input from anyone; doing so would undermine their smoke and mirrors about the supposed revelations they receive on behalf of the church.

These are the words of an apostate. How can an apostate love the church that they have come to believe is smoke and mirrors?

Because men are in charge of the church, and I don't trust men. As soon as God gets put in charge of the church, we'll know it... the books will be open because nothing will be hidden. The leaders will live as the average member lives, because none would ever take from tithing funds. Women will be full partners with men, not patronized, marginalized, and treated like chattel.

Until then, I mourn for the church. We are in a state of apostacy (and ETB agreed, although for a different reason), and our leaders need to repent and ask forgiveness of the members, for they have surely lost touch with what it means to be Mormon.

Have you forgotten the words spoken by the first prophet of this dispensation?

I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1938]

I have little patience with a man who couldn't even verify when he received the higher priesthood. You do realize that's never been canonized, right?

From a site dealing with apostasy

http://www.gbwells.net/Personal%20Apostasy.htm

Victor Ludlow:

The final stage of apostasy is reached when the person gives up and becomes despondent about ever finding peace and fellowship in the Church. This bitter despondency may turn to cynical attacks against the Church or its members, including relatives and former close friends. It is plain to see how accurately Nephi describes Satan’s influence on the primrose pathway to apostasy: Others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, . . . and [he] leadeth them away carefully down to hell. And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains. (2 Ne. 28:21-22.) Not only will some people give themselves over to Satan’s influence, but they may also go one step further and actively persecute and fight against the Church. In other words, they may leave the Church, but they cannot leave it alone. (Victor L. Ludlow, Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1992], 193.)

Who is Victor Ludlow, that I should listen to him?

I'm not in a position to know your heart and make any judgments. I will be the first to admit that. Your online persona, however, causes me to be concerned that you are on the high road to apostasy, if not already there. The fact that you wave a temple recommend around as the sign/proof of what you refer to as activity is meaningless.

The fact that you studiously ignore my points tells me you are blinded by your devotion to men, not God.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's a duck.

Regards,
MG

Well, I'm not a duck. And I'm not an apostate. What I am is saddened by the departure from the principles of the gospel that all men should follow, but that our leaders have neglected in favor of making more money.

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

Wait... I thought the current apologetics is that the church does not teach that those who leave the church are followers of Satan?

Maybe you should delete those quotes before someone finds them! LOL!

;-)

~dancer~

[_Yoda]

The fact that you wave a temple recommend around as the sign/proof of what you refer to as activity is meaningless.

OK...If Harmony isn't going to say anything about this, I will.

I am sick to death of Harmony being attacked because she has stated that she has a temple recommend.

I can't even remember the last time Harmony initiated conversation regarding her temple recommend. But boy, it sure is the "calling card" for all of you folks who like to attack her!

Coggins, rcrockett, Gaz, and now you, MG, have tried to use Harmony's temple recommend as some type of trump card far more than she ever has.

It's ridiculous.

If all of your hot shot apologists are so in tune with the gospel, don't you think that Harmony's church leaders are capable of that same discernment?

Gee....maybe she really is living the gospel worthily.

What a concept!

[_mentalgymnast]

The fact that you wave a temple recommend around as the sign/proof of what you refer to as activity is meaningless.

OK...If Harmony isn't going to say anything about this, I will.

I am sick to death of Harmony being attacked because she has stated that she has a temple recommend.
Gee....maybe she really is living the gospel worthily.

Two things.

1.I don't know harmony except for what I see her write in this forum. For all I know, she could be "living the gospel worthily" much better than I, which wouldn't be too difficult to accomplish. <g>

2. In regards to the fact that she says she has a temple recommend, and if that is indeed the case, I said, "The fact that you wave a temple recommend around as the sign/proof of what you refer to as activity is meaningless."

I stand by that.

If harmony has a temple recommend, that does not give her free pass to say some of the things that she has said in this thread and in other places without having her loyalty/love for the church and for the prophet Joseph Smith questioned. When she said, "My love for this church is well-documented...", I couldn't help but think...where? I'm open to the documentation, in fact I'd love to see it.

I'm not one to challenge people typically. But harmony, in my opinion, has crossed the line repeatedly in some of the things she has said.

Regards,
MG

[_harmony]

If harmony has a temple recommend, that does not give her free pass to say some of the things that she has said in this thread and in other places without having her loyalty/love for the church and for the prophet Joseph Smith questioned.

I have no love or loyalty to Joseph Smith. I've never claimed any and never will, because I have none.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is an entirely different loyalty, though. And to whatever I find of the gospel within the LDS church, I am loyal to the end of my days.

And I have a free pass to say whatever I feel is important to say, regarding any subject of the LDS church. If I feel the leaders need their actions criticized, I'll share my opinion. If I feel the policies are detrimental to the good of the members, I'll share my opinion. If I feel the doctrines are obscured or incorrect, I'll share my opinion. And I'll continue to share my opinion for as long as I feel it helpful for anyone, myself included. And anyone who would muzzle me is not obeying the commandments.

[_Gazelam]

Heres a few:

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?


Harmony, how do you answer these questions when asked them?

[_Polygamy Porter]

Heres a few:

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?


Harmony, how do you answer these questions when asked them?

When was the last time any one of them "seered" anything? Or revelated anything for that matter?

How can you sustain them in a capacity for which they have never filled?

[_Yoda]

Heres a few:

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?


Harmony, how do you answer these questions when asked them?

Gaz....dear...she has already answered this question.

I was the one who originally posted the complete set of temple recommend questions, remember?

You will find her response here:

thread

Here is her exact response from that thread:

Here is a list of the current temple recommend questions asked:

Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
Do you live the law of chastity?
Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
Are you a full-tithe payer?
Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
If you have previously received your temple endowment:Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

Who are we to say that Harmony cannot answer in the affirmative to these questions?

Also....when did Harmony ever say that she was using an alias to hide her identity from her bishop? I think that Plutarch made some accusations to her in that vein, but she refuted it. I remember Harmony stating on another thread that her Church leaders were very aware of her problems with Church history, etc.

I believe that the reason that Harmony is posting anonymously here is for the same reason I am, and many women post anonymously on the Internet. It's for safety concerns. When I first began posting online, I was naiive, and would post under my real name. We ended up with an unfortunate situation with a stalker. Since that time, I have always used an alias.

Jersey Girl and many other women here have adapted aliases for the same reason.

I'm looking at that list, and failing to find anything that says I have to love, honor, support, or worship Joseph Smith or any other prophet. I'm looking and failing to find anything that says I have to blindly support every word that comes out of church headquarters. I'm looking and failing to find anything that says I have to support polygamy, the priesthood ban, or any other policy or doctrine that offends me. I'm looking and failing to find anything that says I have to respect baseless arguments, faulty assumptions, cowardly reports, or closed financial books.

[_Gazelam]

I'm looking at that list, and failing to find anything that says I have to love, honor, support, or worship Joseph Smith or any other prophet. I'm looking and failing to find anything that says I have to blindly support every word that comes out of church headquarters. I'm looking and failing to find anything that says I have to support polygamy, the priesthood ban, or any other policy or doctrine that offends me. I'm looking and failing to find anything that says I have to respect baseless arguments, faulty assumptions, cowardly reports, or closed financial books.

See the bolded part? That part is referencing question #3.

See the italicised part? That has to do with question #4.

Thisis really very simple. Christ leads this church. Harmony has her free agency, but the doctrines of the church are not there for her to pick and choose what she will or will not believe. If she doesent support the fact that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration, then she is an apostate, and she should turn in her recommend until she repents.