God "commanding" people - think about it

[_Sethbag]

How many times, when reading and arguing about Mormon apologetics, do we read the word "command" associated with God? God commanded Joseph to take young girls as his wives behind Emma's back. God commanded Emma to put up with it or be destroyed. God commanded this, God commanded that, etc.

Think about the word for a minute. Command. In your minds, doesn't that word evoke visions of someone yelling something at you, or at least telling you something forcefully, perhaps while pointing a finger at you or something? Why would God need to actually command people? When has God commanded anybody in the LDS church in the last 100 years?

Did God command SWK to give the priesthood to blacks, or did SWK have to beg and plead with God before he finally felt good about it, and decided that God was cool with it?

Has God ever commanded President Hinckley to do anything? Does God command the Quorum of the Twelve?

God is love, God's still small voice, the whisperings of the Spirit, these are all things we read about as coming from God. And then God commanded Joseph to do something. Joseph didn't have a choice, really, you see, because God commanded it.

Why is it that Joseph's practice of telling other mens' wives that they needed to marry him always defended by apologists saying God commanded it? When Joseph talked to a teenaged girl and told her she ought to marry him, and that her salvation was at stake, and she had 24 hours to think it over, even when it was obvious that she didn't want to, why is this always defended by saying God commanded it?

It's not meet that a man should be commanded in all things, yet Joseph Smith was commanded to marry every teenaged girl or attractive married women in town, it would seem. Commanded? Who is this God who went around commanding Joseph Smith to do all kinds of things we now have to look hard for ways to justify?

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the word "command". Somehow I'm finding it just doesn't even fit the notion of God that people otherwise try to promote, as a God of love, who suggests things, or answers questions with suggestions, and things like that. I'm starting to realize at least most instances where I see the word "command" used about God and Joseph Smith, it's really just setting God up to take the blame for whatever it is that Joseph Smith did, sort of like the universal, almighty scapegoat. Hey, don't blame Joseph Smith, God commanded it!

What other things do people say God commanded in the church? Anyone have any good examples aside from polygamy that are justified on the grounds that God commanded it?

[_Mercury]

When you are a charismatic "leader guy" who rules through intimidation, property seizure and any means necessary everything is a commandment because Joseph (speaking for god) does not share power. If you speak for god you might as well be God to the peons that lapped up everything the assclown said.

Joseph and the leader guys that emulated him used this. Now that the Mormon religion is forced to accept the government, corporations and others as authority sources other than the united order and other church related organizations its getting more and more difficult to use the "because god says so" retort when enforcing the will of men on others.

[_truth dancer]

Excellent post Sethbag!

I remember the first time I read the New Testament, followed by the D&C... the two were so completely different.

In the New Testament, Jesus seemed filled with love, care, compassion, inviting us to do good. It seemed to me to be about humility, meekness, forgiveness, and loving each other. The teachings of loving everyone, casting the first stone, the good Samarian, etc. etc. all felt so loving.

The D&C, OTOH, was filled with this angry, commanding, demanding, cruel, fierce, authoritarian guy who seemed to always be ready with a sword to do whatever... like a guy so filled with hate and anger and fear.

I could not ever harmonize the two... (sigh).

In the end, I decided the teachings from Jesus, as best we have them are a pretty good guide for living a good life!

~dancer~

[_harmony]

In the New Testament, Jesus seemed filled with love, care, compassion, inviting us to do good. It seemed to me to be about humility, meekness, forgiveness, and loving each other. The teachings of loving everyone, casting the first stone, the good Samarian, etc. etc. all felt so loving.

The D&C, OTOH, was filled with this angry, commanding, demanding, cruel, fierce, authoritarian guy who seemed to always be ready with a sword to do whatever... like a guy so filled with hate and anger and fear.

Ding ding ding! Give the girl a gold star! And once again, we demonstrate how one is possibly a pretty fair representation of God... and the other is a pretty fair representation of man.

[_Mercury]

In the New Testament, Jesus seemed filled with love, care, compassion, inviting us to do good. It seemed to me to be about humility, meekness, forgiveness, and loving each other. The teachings of loving everyone, casting the first stone, the good Samarian, etc. etc. all felt so loving.

The D&C, OTOH, was filled with this angry, commanding, demanding, cruel, fierce, authoritarian guy who seemed to always be ready with a sword to do whatever... like a guy so filled with hate and anger and fear.

Ding ding ding! Give the girl a gold star! And once again, we demonstrate how one is possibly a pretty fair representation of God... and the other is a pretty fair representation of man.

Harm, if one were to follow the Old Testament more thoroughly than the new, would one be able to live a more true form of Mormonism?

I'm not saying it invalidates your argument yet but TD's main assumption is based on a difference between the Old Testament and New Testament.

Could this also be a main dichotomy among some chapel and some internet/apologist Mormons?

[_harmony]

In the New Testament, Jesus seemed filled with love, care, compassion, inviting us to do good. It seemed to me to be about humility, meekness, forgiveness, and loving each other. The teachings of loving everyone, casting the first stone, the good Samarian, etc. etc. all felt so loving.

The D&C, OTOH, was filled with this angry, commanding, demanding, cruel, fierce, authoritarian guy who seemed to always be ready with a sword to do whatever... like a guy so filled with hate and anger and fear.

Ding ding ding! Give the girl a gold star! And once again, we demonstrate how one is possibly a pretty fair representation of God... and the other is a pretty fair representation of man.

Harm, if one were to follow the Old Testament more thoroughly than the new, would one be able to live a more true form of Mormonism?

I'm not saying it invalidates your argument yet but TD's main assumption is based on a difference between the Old Testament and New Testament.

Could this also be a main dichotomy among some chapel and some internet/apologist Mormons?

They're all full of the teachings of men, Merc. It's easier to pick out that which is God-breathed in the New Testament, though, than in any other "scripture". It's definitely on a higher plane than any of the others.

[_Mercury]

In the New Testament, Jesus seemed filled with love, care, compassion, inviting us to do good. It seemed to me to be about humility, meekness, forgiveness, and loving each other. The teachings of loving everyone, casting the first stone, the good Samarian, etc. etc. all felt so loving.

The D&C, OTOH, was filled with this angry, commanding, demanding, cruel, fierce, authoritarian guy who seemed to always be ready with a sword to do whatever... like a guy so filled with hate and anger and fear.

Ding ding ding! Give the girl a gold star! And once again, we demonstrate how one is possibly a pretty fair representation of God... and the other is a pretty fair representation of man.

Harm, if one were to follow the Old Testament more thoroughly than the new, would one be able to live a more true form of Mormonism?

I'm not saying it invalidates your argument yet but TD's main assumption is based on a difference between the Old Testament and New Testament.

Could this also be a main dichotomy among some chapel and some internet/apologist Mormons?

They're all full of the teachings of men, Merc. It's easier to pick out that which is God-breathed in the New Testament, though, than in any other "scripture". It's definitely on a higher plane than any of the others.

Hmmm, so there really is no way to discern between scripture and the words of men, is there?

[_richardMdBorn]

Joseph Smith's behavior with Nancy Rigdon is an example of why I cannot consider him to be a prophet. Rather, he was a bad man who covered his behavior under the "God commanded me" excuse.

Another significant factor to Rigdon's demise in the eyes of Utah Mormons was the conflict between his daughter and Joseph Smith. Nancy Rigdon, Sidney's daughter, was seduced by Joseph Smith when Smith was actively acquiring new wives. Nancy refused Smith's attempts and word leaked out to others (although Nancy and Sidney kept the issue private). The documentation for this event is abundant including a letter by Joseph Smith to Nancy which was included in the official History of the Church. In order to make Joseph look good, many leaders of the church attempted to make Nancy look like the promiscuous one. Although Sidney reconciled with Smith, other polygamous church leaders never forgave Rigdon for not accepting and encouraging polygamy.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/sr.shtml

[_Jason Bourne]

When you are a charismatic "leader guy" who rules through intimidation, property seizure and any means necessary everything is a commandment because Joseph (speaking for god) does not share power. If you speak for god you might as well be God to the peons that lapped up everything the assclown said.

Joseph and the leader guys that emulated him used this. Now that the Mormon religion is forced to accept the government, corporations and others as authority sources other than the united order and other church related organizations its getting more and more difficult to use the "because god says so" retort when enforcing the will of men on others.

As I consider this issue there are valid points. For me, when I read Mormon Enigma and then read the letter Joseph Smith wrote to Nancy Rigdon about happiness being the design of our exsitence I did a double take. Understanding the context, which I did not before, when he said at times God commands one thing at other times he commands another I thought, well dang! if that is the case we better be very sure that the dude that is supposed to be telling us what God changed his mind about is really speaking for God.

To me, the letter to Nancy just seemed, well, too expedient.

[_Jason Bourne]

Excellent post Sethbag!

I remember the first time I read the New Testament, followed by the D&C... the two were so completely different.

In the New Testament, Jesus seemed filled with love, care, compassion, inviting us to do good. It seemed to me to be about humility, meekness, forgiveness, and loving each other. The teachings of loving everyone, casting the first stone, the good Samarian, etc. etc. all felt so loving.

The D&C, OTOH, was filled with this angry, commanding, demanding, cruel, fierce, authoritarian guy who seemed to always be ready with a sword to do whatever... like a guy so filled with hate and anger and fear.

I could not ever harmonize the two... (sigh).

In the end, I decided the teachings from Jesus, as best we have them are a pretty good guide for living a good life!

~dancer~

Really? Did you miss these sayings:

Matt 10:34-38:
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

ST MATTHEW
CHAPTER 23
Jesus pronounces woes upon the scribes and Pharisees—The blood of the prophets shall be required at their hands—They shall not escape the damnation of hell.
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The ascribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ bseat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they amake broad their bphylacteries, and enlarge the cborders of their garments,
6 And love the auppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, aRabbi.
8 But be not ye called aRabbi: for one is your bMaster, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 aAnd call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, aeven Christ.
11 But he that is agreatest among you shall be your bservant.
12 And whosoever shall aexalt himself shall be babased; and he that shall chumble himself shall be exalted.
13 ¶ But woe unto you, ascribes and bPharisees, chypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye adevour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater bdamnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell athan yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye ablind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, ahypocrites! for ye pay btithe of mint and canise and cummin, and have domitted the weightier matters of the law, ejudgment, fmercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a acamel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of aextortion and bexcess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, acleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto awhited bsepulchres, which indeed appear cbeautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all duncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear arighteous unto men, but within ye are full of bhypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the aprophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which akilled the bprophets.
32 Fill ye up then the ameasure of your bfathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye ageneration of vipers, how can ye escape the bdamnation of hell?
34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you aprophets, and wise men, and bscribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous ablood shed upon the earth, from the blood of brighteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the ctemple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this ageneration.
37 O aJerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that bkillest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often cwould I have dgathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye ewould not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you adesolate.
39 aFor I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, bBlessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

There is much more.

I agree that Jesus teaches lots of love and mecy but there is a lot in the New Testament that is pretty harsh too. I cand find more if you wish. Just read Revelation.