FARMS and the Invention of Evidence

[_beastie]

There is not a Sorenson book with which I agree. There is no "side" here. Characterizing me as on a "side" will be a mistake.

He's on your side as far as believing that the Book of Mormon is an ancient historical document. Whether or not you agree with his LGT, you agree with him on that. He has no reason to deny that the sculpture is a horse if it really is, in fact, he has every reason to want to see a horse as much as Hunter did.

I like those Toltec cave drawings show Native Americans forging iron implements, making gold plates, eating goats, riding horses and elephants.

Be more specific. Which cave at which site?

The particular find by The British Museum scientists at Chiapas Site No. 56A is particularly interesting. I've never heard anybody say that their finding was a fraud.

And this find was.....

[_Blixa]

I'm not sure depictions in art have much meaning here. The Museum of Anthropologie in Mexico City (I've been there; seen them myself) have a depiction of a bearded European man dating back to around 600 AD to 1000 AD; there is a mural depicting two races of people, white and brown, fighting each other. My guide (a moonlighting university professor) at the Museum told me that these pieces of art demonstrated (1) Europeon contact with MesoAmerica long before Columbus, and (2) a now-extinct light-skinned peoples. But, what of it?

Sorry, I'm getting late to this thread...

This part made me wonder. I, too, have been to the Museo Nacional de Antropología e Historia and do not remember anything like this and certainly nothing with that interpretation. Perhaps you could find pictures on the web and post them? Or maybe you have your own photos?

Every guide you meet around Mexico City is a "moonlighting university professor" and quite capable of tailoring their remarks to what they think their tourist wants to hear. I've certainly seen that many, many times. I'm not saying this necessarily happened here, but I wonder if you didn't hint at what kind of interpretations you wanted.

[_beastie]

Every guide you meet around Mexico City is a "moonlighting university professor" and quite capable of tailoring their remarks to what they think their tourist wants to hear. I've certainly seen that many, many times. I'm not saying this necessarily happened here, but I wonder if you didn't hint at what kind of interpretations you wanted.

And imagine if it was a Mormon group. I can just imagine some tour guide saying just what he knows Mormons want to hear.


by the way, crocket, you need to give more details in regards to your claims if you expect people to respond to them in any sort of meaningful manner.

How about a peer-reviewed paper discussing the Chiapas find?

[_cksalmon]

But I wonder about all those Native American cave drawings showing Indians
[We're going to kick you off this board summarily if you don't provide cites for your assertions.]

crocket--

You made a funny. If I ever see a mod at MDB make this sort of insertion, I'm going to go into anaphylactic shock!

Best.

CKS

[_cksalmon]

James White: The issue is where is the Book of Mormon data, I have to go back to the same statement.

Caller: Where is the elephants, where is the wheat?

Daniel Peterson: Where is the barley, where is the corn, which Rev White denies the existence of in his book, and we have found.

Caller: Where is the horses?

Daniel Peterson:Oh, you want to know about horses? You need to read the latest research..(interrupted)

Martin Tanner: Pete, Pete if you would subscribe to FARMS, you would see much of that but I am amzed that Rev White, like you Pete, would resort to scientific explanations to try to prove or disprove something (interrupted)

Caller: yeah sure.

James White: Now Martin that is an invalid argument Martin. I’m simply saying that the archeological research into the text of the Bible is quantitatively different than any discussion of theories regarding locations for any Book of Mormon cities or anything of the kind.

Daniel Peterson: Absolutely true, and you’re comparing apples and oranges. It is an absurd comparision.

James White: Well that was Martin’s point so I agree that that the comparison is absurd.

Daniel Peterson: It is absurd because mesoamerican archeology as such, is not comparable with Palestinian archeology.

What is interesting to me with regard to this thread is the comment by DCP:

Oh, you want to know about horses? You need to read the latest research..

What does that mean?

Best.

CKS

PS. Found on Kevin Graham's site here

[_beastie]

You made a funny. If I ever see a mod at MDB make this sort of insertion, I'm going to go into anaphylactic shock!

Yeah, that was funny. And true. ;) (not the kicking off part)

What does that mean?

I'm so glad you posted this. I'd love you to directly ask Peterson what he meant by that. There is no latest research supporting the existence of horses in the New World in the specified time period. The only "latest research" I've heard of is the internet rumor that supposedly that 100 BC date was going to be verified.... but other than the rumor, there's been nothing to that.

This radio conversation was a good example of how misleading apologists can be. And since Peterson participated quite a bit on FAIR where this topic was discussed, and he knows there is no recent research out there supporting the horse bit, I am concluding he knew he was being misleading. Perhaps he was thinking about the 100 BC thing and hoped that the research WOULD be out shortly, but even if that were true (and I doubt we will ever see that bit of research, I think that died somewhere in quiet disappointment), it was very misleading to act as if research was out there, if only the caller would bother to check.

[_beastie]

Thanks for the little lecture on the progress of Mesoamerican studies. As I stood at the top of a temple in Uxmal, I looked at the Yucatan basin before me. As far as the eye could see were thousands of hillocks; maybe 100 foot high each. The peninsula looked quite hilly. My Mayan guide remarked that the peninsula is completely flat, rising only slightly from the east to the west at Uxmal. The hillocks were all individual buildings -- thousands of them -- which have never been excavated or even opened. It was an amazing site. My guide remarked that so little has been done.

I cite this little anecdote not to say that the absence of evidence implies evidence (I.e., until we excavate these sources we don't know if there are horses; I think that is fallacious and condemn anybody who argues that the absence of evidence is proof of its existence). I have always conceded, and continue to willingly concede, that the overwhelming consensus of experts is that horses died out long before Columbus and long before any possible Lehite civilization.

First, if you've always conceded that the consensus is that horses died out long before Columbus and long before any possible Lehite civilization, why did you demand peer reviewed articles demonstrating what you already accepted?

Second - Of course there is much left to be discovered in Mesoamerica. But the hope of yet-to-be-discovered sites does not salvage your claims. The fact is that enough has been discovered about ancient Mesoamerica, in particular since the decoding of their written language, that scholars have good, reliable ideas about certain basic elements. They have good evidence to support their descriptions of the type of government, for example, and its complete enmeshment with the religious system. They have good evidence to support mode of travel and trade. These are just two examples. To stick with the horse issue in particular, what we do reliably know about ancient Mesoamerica looks nothing like a culture with horses looks like. It's not just the bones, as I tried to point out before we became derailed with your ignorance about the Maya, despite your extensive travels there. It's that the Maya were a culture who entwined animals in their mythology, which was reflected in their art and mythology. In fact, a very significant part of their theology involved spiritual companion animals called way. The idea that an animal as powerful as a horse could exist in ancient Mesoamerica and not be utilized as way is inconceivable.

So you can be as patient as you want, and as hopeful as you want, but the chance that your hopes will be realized one day are about the same as the hope Hale boppers once had to find the spaceship in a tail of a comet.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

... I've never heard anybody say that their finding was a fraud.

[We're going to kick you off this board summarily if you don't provide cites for your assertions.]

I hope the text in red is simply one of Bob's jokes, but if it is from a Mod, then I'm pissed. This bb ain't FAIR/MAD, but a deliciously censor-free open forum. Let's keep it that way.

[_Mister Scratch]

... I've never heard anybody say that their finding was a fraud.

[We're going to kick you off this board summarily if you don't provide cites for your assertions.]

I hope the text in red is simply one of Bob's jokes, but if it is from a Mod, then I'm pissed. This bb ain't FAIR/MAD, but a deliciously censor-free open forum. Let's keep it that way.

I am 100% sure it is from Bob. He has a penchant for failing to produce sources (often because he has unscrupulously manipulated those sources), and so this is a bit of humor on his part.

[_Bond...James Bond]

I hope the text in red is simply one of Bob's jokes, but if it is from a Mod, then I'm pissed. This bb ain't FAIR/MAD, but a deliciously censor-free open forum. Let's keep it that way.

It's crockett.