Boy Scouting and the Mormon Church

[_DonBradley]

I think scouting is fantastic. It gives teenage boys adventure, skills, worthwhile goals and objectives for learning, growth, and achievement at a time in their lives, and a day and age, when it is much more typical to be without much constructive direction.

Suppose Robert Baden Powell was a fascist--though I don't see that his general judgment on Mein Kampf would make him one, anymore than my own positive reaction years ago to reading "The Communist Manifesto" makes me a communist. (I'm a moderate progressive.) But supposing he was, so what? If it could be shown that Thomas Jefferson had someone murdered (which one historian argues), would this make the Declaration of Independence, and much of the US Constitution, some sort of abomination? Of course, not. The Declaration and Constitution should be judged by their effects, not by their originators. The same holds true for the Boys Scouts.

As an atheist I certainly dislike the exclusion of non-theists. But I understand the exclusion of gays. Gays are excluded for the same reason that girls and women are excluded: people who would have a sexual interest in young men don't belong on group camp outs with them. This is no less true of gay men and boys than of women and girls.

We don't live in a perfect world, where there are ideal circumstances for including every person in every group, or where every group was founded by someone of progressive values and sterling character. We can use the circumstances and institutions we have, and try to improve them; or we can reject them all because they're all too human, and miss out on the good they have to offer.

Don

[_Polygamy Porter]

I think scouting is fantastic. It gives teenage boys adventure, skills, worthwhile goals and objectives for learning, growth, and achievement at a time in their lives, and a day and age, when it is much more typical to be without much constructive direction.

Yep and in Mormon scout troops a friggin testiphoney meeting each night around the damn camp fire. Fan-friggin-tastic!

[_Inconceivable]

I think scouting is fantastic. It gives teenage boys adventure, skills, worthwhile goals and objectives for learning, growth, and achievement at a time in their lives, and a day and age, when it is much more typical to be without much constructive direction...

Thanks Don, Your perspective is how I feel about much of it. That was my emphasis as a an Assistant Scoutmaster/Deacons Quorem Advisor/Scoutmaster for about 9 years. I loved this job. I only missed a small handful of the monthly overnighters during this period.

Experiencing the outings first hand gave me re-affirmations that there must be a God that watches over young boys - or maybe it was the faith and prayers of their mothers. In spite of my strictness for safety, I shudder as I recall some of the things I witnessed the boys (and even other scoutmasters) attempting before putting a stop to it.

Some things I had vocal disdain for - like the merit badge and advancement mills through which even my own Eagle Award was issued many years ago.

I wanted to make it substantive and gave it my best shot. We really did have a great time. I can honestly say that the greatest merit to the program was that most of them had matured in an honorable way in just 2-3 years. We share the same respect and friendship for each other even after all these years - a cause of great concern for a few members of the ward. I can't blame them.

The new Duty to God program was in introduced a few years before my release. It is wrong thinking. For kids that exhibit symptoms of ADD etc, it is an insurmountable task (and even for the leaders). It is a program that can only be successful if the results and statistics can be fudged. It's a flogging as well.

I have much to say, but this can suffice.

So far as the Third Reich is concerned, even the Mormon church had some positive affirmations for Hitler's Germany before the US jumped into the war. I find it deplorable that they didn't recognize the wickedness of their twisted form of Manifest Destiny. Inspiration could have been a big plus here. No doubt, Baden had a downside as well.

[_Dr. Shades]

I think the LDS church's involvement in the Scouting program is inherently hypocritical, for two reasons:

• For all intents and purposes, it's mandatory. If some poor kid doesn't have any interest in camping, building fires, and tying knots, well, he has to suck it up if he's Mormon.
• The LDS church doesn't sponsor the Girl Scouts with the same enthusiasm it does the Boy Scouts. If Scouting is such a fantastic program for boys, it's two-faced to deny the same privilege to the girls.

[_Blixa]

I think the LDS church's involvement in the Scouting program is inherently hypocritical, for two reasons:

• For all intents and purposes, it's mandatory. If some poor kid doesn't have any interest in camping, building fires, and tying knots, well, he has to suck it up if he's Mormon.
• The LDS church doesn't sponsor the Girl Scouts with the same enthusiasm it does the Boy Scouts. If Scouting is such a fantastic program for boys, it's two-faced to deny the same privilege to the girls.

These were always my objections as well.

[_harmony]

I think the LDS church's involvement in the Scouting program is inherently hypocritical, for two reasons:

• For all intents and purposes, it's mandatory. If some poor kid doesn't have any interest in camping, building fires, and tying knots, well, he has to suck it up if he's Mormon.
• The LDS church doesn't sponsor the Girl Scouts with the same enthusiasm it does the Boy Scouts. If Scouting is such a fantastic program for boys, it's two-faced to deny the same privilege to the girls.

Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are not at all the same type of program. There is nothing inherently outdoorsy about Girl Scouts. The LDS church's Girls Camp has more outdoorsy skills in it than Girl Scouts.

Girl Scouts is inherently opposed to the LDS church. The principles are exactly the opposite. The LDS girls' program, Young Women of Excellence, concentrates on building homemaking skills, while the Girls Scouts concentrates building strong girls through education, leadership, and empowerment. The LDS Young Women of Excellence program builds strong testimonies; the Girl Scouts builds strong girls. It would be difficult to find a program more opposite.

Just my impression of both programs. All of my sons are Eagle Scouts (and not through the merit badge mill. None of them finished earning it until a week before their 18th birthday) and both of my girls earned the Young Women of Excellence award.

[_silentkid]

I think scouting is fantastic. It gives teenage boys adventure, skills, worthwhile goals and objectives for learning, growth, and achievement at a time in their lives, and a day and age, when it is much more typical to be without much constructive direction.

I absolutely hated scouting. I tried to like it. Both of my older brothers were Eagle Scouts. I made it to the rank of Life and then quit. I think there are other types of constructive direction that are much better than scouting (i.e. competitive sports, art classes, music classes, etc.). I was a USS swimmer from age 9 to age 14. I found it much more appealing and rewarding than any merit badge. Sure, scouting may work for some (those who don't find it necessary to climb to the top of trees and pee down on other scouts as they walk below), but the LDS church's insistence on this program for all boys of scouting age is ridiculous and the pressure that parents put on their kids to get their Eagle is unwarranted.

[_KimberlyAnn]

I think scouting is fantastic. It gives teenage boys adventure, skills, worthwhile goals and objectives for learning, growth, and achievement at a time in their lives, and a day and age, when it is much more typical to be without much constructive direction.

I absolutely hated scouting. I tried to like it. Both of my older brothers were Eagle Scouts. I made it to the rank of Life and then quit. I think there are other types of constructive direction that are much better than scouting (I.e. competitive sports, art classes, music classes, etc.). I was a USS swimmer from age 9 to age 14. I found it much more appealing and rewarding than any merit badge. Sure, scouting may work for some (those who don't find it necessary to climb to the top of trees and pee down on other scouts as they walk below), but the LDS church's insistence on this program for all boys of scouting age is ridiculous and the pressure that parents put on their kids to get their Eagle is unwarranted.

I agree, Silentkid. Forcing boys into the Scouting program not only does the boys no favors, but it weakens the troop to the point that it's a shadow of the Scouting programs of other churches or communities.

In my experience, LDS Scouting is little more than a merit badge mill, and the Eagle Scout projects are a joke. That's my experience and the experience of my husband who is an Eagle Scout who went through the scouting program as a never-mo. He was later called to be the Scout Master of our ward and found everything in disarray. The boys had little motivation.

Within a few months, the boys were training for mountain climbing. Tom (DH) and his assistant drove the boys to Colorado and they climbed a 14,000 ft mountain. The next year they went white water rafting. They learned to rappel and had a great time until the church began imposing harsh restrictions on the scouting program, not allowing the scouts to travel over a limited number of miles from the Stake Center. My husband complained so loudly that he was released from his calling.

From what I understand, those restrictions are still in place and several boys from our old ward are now in other troops, meeting at other churches. Good for them.

If the LDS church can't do scouting right, they shouldn't do it at all.

KA

[_DonBradley]

Kids in school are "pressured" in PE to perform at sports they may not like or be any good at--I was! Institutions have their own norms and default programs. I see nothing wrong with that. Part of the cost of community life is that one doesn't simply choose everything oneself. But this cost is well worth the benefits. There's plenty of social science research to back this up. See, for instance, Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam, The Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz.

Don

[_KimberlyAnn]

Kids in school are "pressured" in PE to perform at sports they may not like or be any good at--I was! Institutions have their own norms and default programs. I see nothing wrong with that. Part of the cost of community life is that one doesn't simply choose everything oneself. But this cost is well worth the benefits. There's plenty of social science research to back this up. See, for instance, Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam, The Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz.

Don

PE, at least in my home state, is a legal requirement for students through the seventh grade. Personally, I agree with that requirement and feel physical activity is important for students. But participating in something as encompassing as Scouts should be an option, not a requirement. What business does a religion have requiring boys to be in scouts? I know of few other religions that have the audacity to force people to do things like Mormonism does. That's one of the many reasons I consider Mormonism a cult.

KA