The Depressing Plan of Salvation

[_huckelberry]

Hoops you sound realistic when you note that there are not a lot of requirements specified for receiving the benefits of the atonment. You start out sounding like you want to be broad in applying it to people, even people different than yourself. Then you propose that a person must accept the trinity or the payment is not good enough.

I would like to underline the disrespect in the phrase, payment not good enough. As though if the atonement was better put together it might apply to a few more people.

What you clear said, and I am quite sure you did not consciously mean, is that Gods plan is not strong enough to save people who did not understand and accept a theological doctrine.

Gazalems version is much more biblical. I do not think your disqualification system has a Biblical leg to stand on.

I think it could be considered that forgiving others is a requirement for receiving Gods forgiveness. Jesus said so. I think it could be considered that careing for peoples needs is a requirement. Jesus said so. I think it could be considered that respecting God and loving each other is involved. Jesus said so.

Where did Jesus say he would not forgive you if failed to be a part of Christian theology.

I thnk there is a real tradgedy in the fals belief that Christian theology is a sytem of barriers condemning people to hell. I think the church was called to be a help to all people in the world. God said so. I think theology exists only to help people do that. If it is twisted around into a pattern of exclusion it looses its savor and worth only to be poured upon the street for people to walk on.

[_truth dancer]

If I recall correctly, Matt 7 states,

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged... "

The way I see it, Jesus was saying that as we judge others we will be judged.

So those folks who think they are the really righteous ones who are going to be in heaven, and everyone else isn't quite as good and doesn't deserve the highest glory, may be in for a big surprise! Just a guess!

;-)

Unless this is one of those scriptures that no one believes anymore. (sigh)

~dancer~

[_Seven]

The requirement for salvation is taking on the name of Christ through Covenant.

People are divided into the various kingdoms based on their adherence to the covenant and the principles associated with that covenant.

Hell, or outer darkness, is reserved for those who have a full understanding of the doctrines involved and openly rebel against them. Of coarce these peope are cast off, why make them miserable by forceing them to spend time with someone they hate? Everyone will spend eternity with those individuals that share their views.

Those shortsighted and foolish enough to hate God and his plan of salvation wont have a thing to worry about. You wont have to be anywhere near him.

Is this your opinion or Mormon doctrine? I had understood that all of us will inherit a glory- the atheist, apostates, or any of those that rejected a belief in Jesus on earth. The only people who go to a true hell/outer darkness, are those that have had a "perfect knowledge" of Jesus Christ or visitation by Him and still reject Him. In other words, somebody who no longer has the veil over their mind and chooses Satan. Everybody who chose to come here on earth is saved in a kingdom because of Jesus's sacrifice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telestial_kingdom

quote]Inhabitants of the telestial kingdom
According to Doctrine and Covenants section 76, those who will inhabit the telestial kingdom include those who "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus."[2] It also includes "liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."[3] Because of their refusal to accept Jesus as their Savior, these individuals will suffer in hell for their sins for 1000 years during the millennial reign of Christ.[4] After the 1000 years, the individuals in hell will be resurrected and receive an immortal physical body and be assigned to the telestial kingdom.[5]

Smith taught that individuals in the telestial kingdom will be servants of God, but "where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end";[6] however, they will receive the ministration of the Holy Ghost and beings from the terrestrial kingdom.[7] Despite these limitations, in LDS theology being resident in the telestial kingdom is not an unpleasant experience: "the glory of the telestial ... surpasses all understanding".[8]

Smith also taught that unlike individuals in the celestial or terrestrial kingdoms, each person resurrected to telestial glory will be of a different glory: "as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in the telestial world."[9] Because they accepted Jesus and relied upon his merits, residents of the celestial and terrestrial glory will all receive the same respective glory. However, because residents of the telestial kingdom rejected Jesus as the Savior, they will be rewarded according to their own merits and works; thus each person's glory will vary depending on their works while on the earth.[10]

Smith and Rigdon say that "we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore".[11] One Latter-day Saint commentator has suggested that by implication this means that "most of the adult people who have lived from the day of Adam to the present time will go to the telestial kingdom."[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Perdition

Son of Perdition is also well known as a term used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (sometimes referred to as Mormons) to describe a person who will not take any part in the glory of God in the afterlife. This is in contrast to the vast majority of people, who will receive a "kingdom of glory" after the Final Judgment, and enter into either the Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial Kingdoms. Most Latter-day Saints believe that the Sons of Perdition will be cast into outer darkness; the scriptures do not use this term in connection with the Sons of Perdition, but state that they "shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels."[1]

Mormons believe that free will is one of the greatest gifts of God, and therefore that there could be some who completely reject Jesus Christ and salvation. God will not force someone, for example Satan, to be saved if Satan desires not to be saved. Sons of Perdition are not so much punished in Mormon theology as allowed to walk away from God and live in whatever amount of darkness they desire.

In an LDS context, the name Perdition refers to either Lucifer (D&C 76:26) or Cain (Moses 5:24), both of whom are symbols of ultimate evil.

According to LDS theology, there are two classes of persons who will become sons of perdition:

The pre-mortal hosts (or followers) of Satan. It is taught that, in the pre-mortal life, they chose to follow a plan proposed by Satan, rather than God and Jesus' plan. Thus ensued the First War in Heaven.
Those in mortal life who "deny the Holy Ghost," which is generally interpreted as leaving and fighting against the LDS Church and thereby "crucify[ing] to themselves the Son of God afresh"[2] after receiving a personal witness of the truthfulness of the gospel from the Holy Ghost. It is frequently—though not universally—added that a son of perdition must have a "perfect knowledge" of the truth of the church (mere faith is not enough). Generally, the requirement of perfect knowledge is only fulfilled by a personal visitation from Jesus Christ or an angel of the Lord. This was taught by LDS Church President Spencer W. Kimball.

[_Gazelam]

I think what I said matches pretty much what the Wikipedia said.

You can take the term "kingdom" and translate it as "sphere of influence". Each person receives as much responsibility and influence as they are capable of upholding.

Adherence to the principles of the gospel invites the spirit of the Lord into our lives, and it has a cleansing effect that prepares us for the eternities.

Bruce R. McConkie stated:

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

[_Hoops]

Hoops you sound realistic when you note that there are not a lot of requirements specified for receiving the benefits of the atonment. You start out sounding like you want to be broad in applying it to people, even people different than yourself. Then you propose that a person must accept the trinity or the payment is not good enough.

I would like to underline the disrespect in the phrase, payment not good enough. As though if the atonement was better put together it might apply to a few more people.

What you clear said, and I am quite sure you did not consciously mean, is that Gods plan is not strong enough to save people who did not understand and accept a theological doctrine.

Gazalems version is much more biblical. I do not think your disqualification system has a Biblical leg to stand on.

I think it could be considered that forgiving others is a requirement for receiving Gods forgiveness. Jesus said so. I think it could be considered that careing for peoples needs is a requirement. Jesus said so. I think it could be considered that respecting God and loving each other is involved. Jesus said so.

Where did Jesus say he would not forgive you if failed to be a part of Christian theology.

I thnk there is a real tradgedy in the fals belief that Christian theology is a sytem of barriers condemning people to hell. I think the church was called to be a help to all people in the world. God said so. I think theology exists only to help people do that. If it is twisted around into a pattern of exclusion it looses its savor and worth only to be poured upon the street for people to walk on.

Ridiculous. If you're wanting to get into a discussion on the Trinity great. But your claim that I don't have Biblical leg to stand on is silly. You are so blinded by your LDS "revelations" that you choose to not read the Bible for what it is.

Nevertheless, one must accpept the Trinity for the validate the atonement because God is the only thing/person that is capable of the ultimate sacrifice - which is what is required by His own word. If you do not accept the highest/ultimate sacrifice is necessary than you deny the Bible and Christ's Godhood - which is fine, but does not dispute my point.

My only point was that western expression is not the only way to accept the Creator for ones own atonement.

[_Hoops]

The caveat, however, and this is clear from the Bible is that one must accept the Trinity - or the payment is not enough. And one must accept God, who, by definition, can be only one God. And one must accept that we are NOT Gods, thereby retaining the supremacy of God.

So does that effectively leave - say - Hindu's, up ****-creek without a paddle? Or am I reading you wrong?

Nope, you're not reading me wrong. Though I might phrase it differently.

[_Hoops]

I think what I said matches pretty much what the Wikipedia said.

You can take the term "kingdom" and translate it as "sphere of influence". Each person receives as much responsibility and influence as they are capable of upholding.

Adherence to the principles of the gospel invites the spirit of the Lord into our lives, and it has a cleansing effect that prepares us for the eternities.

Bruce R. McConkie stated:

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

And you know this "true" doctrine from where?

[_Hoops]

Sounds like a fun party in RoP's heaven!

LOL

Is that you in the picture? Are we allowed to ask that?

[_Hoops]

We also discussed the Bible and my belief that it is not perfect, and has been influenced by men,culture, contains translation errors, etc.. I told her that it doesn't feel Godly to me when I read about incest, massacring women and children in Gods name, and polygamy in the Old Testament. How can we condemn Islamic extremists if we praise the same actions in the Bible committed by "God's chosen?" That didn't go over very well either.

Then you need to converse with some evies that have a better grasp of the Bible. Just because your friends can't make a case for It doesn't mean a case can not be made.

[_The Nehor]

I think the keys to salvation lie mostly in faith in Christ and repentance (and the tie-in forgiveness).

I'd go with Joseph Smith's outline of what is needed to possess faith necessary for salvation:

1. Knowledge that God exist
2. Correct understanding of his attributes
3. Knowledge that your life is in conformity with his will

Repentance gets number 3 back on track and we can't repent without forgiving. God doesn't accept it.

Since repentance is a renewal of life through positive change faith in God is not a prerequisite for it. I suspect God looks much more kindly and with more hope towards someone actively repenting and forgiving even if they have an alternate theology or even no theology underscoring it than the hollow pathetic empty belief in a series of doctrines.

Belief is not faith. Faithless believers abound. There is no inherent merit in accepting a series of positive beliefs if they have no effect on you. Furthermore accepting the correct theology is a huge advantage on the road and if, all other things being equal, you can't match up to someone who does not believe you have failed. If the great moral leaders exceed us without that theology we should be humbled and strive to match and exceed them.