The Depressing Plan of Salvation

[_beastie]

Well, no matter how you cut it, many people are willing and apparently happy to believe in a "loving" God who either:

physically and emotionally tortures human beings for all eternity


emotionally tortures human beings for all eternity by forcibly divorcing them from their family

If a God like this does exist, why would anyone want to worship and love "him"? Does believing in this God require human beings to divest themselves of natural feelings of charity, compassion, and morality?

[_Hoops]

Well, no matter how you cut it, many people are willing and apparently happy to believe in a "loving" God who either:

physically and emotionally tortures human beings for all eternity


emotionally tortures human beings for all eternity by forcibly divorcing them from their family

If a God like this does exist, why would anyone want to worship and love "him"? Does believing in this God require human beings to divest themselves of natural feelings of charity, compassion, and morality?

You are throwing at some terms here, and quite willingly using your definition of such, and applying them to God. Destroying those who "don't make it" is more moral? Letting everybody in is moral and just? Is it charitable to NOT separate the wheat from the chaffe? Gooey sticky hugs and kisses is all there is to love? Is love just a wonderful feeling?

Tell us, what exactly would you do?

[_beastie]

You are throwing at some terms here, and quite willingly using your definition of such, and applying them to God. Destroying those who "don't make it" is more moral? Letting everybody in is moral and just? Is it charitable to NOT separate the wheat from the chaffe? Gooey sticky hugs and kisses is all there is to love? Is love just a wonderful feeling?

Tell us, what exactly would you do?

"Destroying those who don't make it"? That's God's only alternative? Kill/destroy/annihilate them or torture them for eternity? If that's the choice, then, yeah, destroying/killing them would be more moral than torturing them for eternity. D'oh. Better to not exist than suffer excruciating pain for all eternity. Do you really need someone to spell that out for you?

Well, for starters, if I were God, and there was some overwhelming reason for the good guys to be separated from the bad guys in the next life (and what is happening in heaven to necessitate that, exactly?), I would go with reincarnation. Keep giving people chances until they get it right, whatever that means to God.

In addition to that, I would make certain that there were no conditions - biological or nature - that create unnecessary pain and suffering, to say nothing of making it more difficult for some people to "make it" than others, by no fault of their own. Life, in and of itself, without things like tsunamis, migraines, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, famine, drought - is challenging enough to "test" your creatures or children, if that's what you want. I know plenty of people who don't suffer from any of these sort of challenges and still find it a challenge to do what they think God wants them to do, don't you? So why construct a system that needlessly whammies some people with unnecessary pain and suffering for no real purpose?

[_truth dancer]

What would I do?

For starters....

"If I could design and create Heaven, it would be a place where everyone resides. No one is left out. No one.

In my Heaven, those who lived lives creating pain and suffering will be healed, their cruelty and destruction evaporated from the universe. Those who have been hurt and wronged would release the sorrow and pain with forgiveness and understanding, and become healed and whole.

The sorrows, pain, and horrors of this earth life would be placed in the context of never ending existence. We would completely grasp the essence of the universe moving beyond any sense of harm or unhealthiness.

Our awareness would be so expansive that we would have no glimmer of condemnation, criticism, or judgements of others. There would be no need for punishments or sentencing... no need for arbitrary rules, tests, conflicting, unreasonable laws, or issues of power and authority.

We would all have learned all the lessons we need to to live from a place of perfect care, compassion, love, and unity.

The deepest love we have for our families and friends would extend to our human family. The most lovely moments we can experience would be magnified to their fullest possibility.

Those I have hurt will forgive me, and I will forgive those who have hurt me. I will be able to express my gratitude for all those who have given me support, love, and care throughout my life, and in turn I will feel the joy I have extended to others."

The whole concept of picking the good folks, destroying the bad ones sounds like some primitive idea.... The test thing just completely doesn't work. :-( The idea that one must believe in something that seems unbelievable in order to be with God, REALLY sounds odd.

If there is a God/being/person who created an eternity that resembles our earth life (which I HIGHLY doubt), I would hope this God would care more about a person living a good life, doing they best one can, trying to be caring and loving, etc. etc. than she/he/it would care about how the person describes God.

Just how I see it... :-)

~dancer~

[_Seven]

The requirement for salvation is taking on the name of Christ through Covenant.

People are divided into the various kingdoms based on their adherence to the covenant and the principles associated with that covenant.

Hell, or outer darkness, is reserved for those who have a full understanding of the doctrines involved and openly rebel against them. Of coarce these peope are cast off, why make them miserable by forceing them to spend time with someone they hate? Everyone will spend eternity with those individuals that share their views.

Those shortsighted and foolish enough to hate God and his plan of salvation wont have a thing to worry about. You wont have to be anywhere near him.

Hi Gazelam,
You said outer darkness is reserved for those who have a full understanding of the doctrines and openly rebel against them. Can you explain what you mean by "a full understanding of doctrines?"

You also said that "The requirement for salvation is taking on the name of Christ through Covenant."
Mormon doctrine differs from what you posted. Those in the Telestial Kingdom rejected Christ as their Savior so how have they taken the name of Christ through Covenant? They are the people who refuse to accept Jesus. All of us are saved because of His sacrifice. We don't have to covenant with Him to receive that gift. All we had to do was come to earth and receive a body to be saved.

I don't see what you posted as the same.

[_Blixa]

My two cents?

It's depressing. Way depressing.

[_The Nehor]

What would I do?

For starters....

"If I could design and create Heaven, it would be a place where everyone resides. No one is left out. No one.

In my Heaven, those who lived lives creating pain and suffering will be healed, their cruelty and destruction evaporated from the universe. Those who have been hurt and wronged would release the sorrow and pain with forgiveness and understanding, and become healed and whole.
~dancer~

Wouldn't this mean forcibly altering people's personality until they weren't who they were? This is worse than either rape or murder.

[_barrelomonkeys]

What would I do?

For starters....

"If I could design and create Heaven, it would be a place where everyone resides. No one is left out. No one.

In my Heaven, those who lived lives creating pain and suffering will be healed, their cruelty and destruction evaporated from the universe. Those who have been hurt and wronged would release the sorrow and pain with forgiveness and understanding, and become healed and whole.
~dancer~

Wouldn't this mean forcibly altering people's personality until they weren't who they were? This is worse than either rape or murder.

I think that sounds wonderful to have a clean slate so to speak. I don't have any illusions of that but if there was a heaven I don't want my trials and tribulations to follow me. Nehor, do you believe in heaven you will still have the same personality and any "issues" you have now?

[_The Nehor]

I think that sounds wonderful to have a clean slate so to speak. I don't have any illusions of that but if there was a heaven I don't want my trials and tribulations to follow me. Nehor, do you believe in heaven you will still have the same personality and any "issues" you have now?

I expect the best aspects of my personality to survive. I think heaven will be less fun without me in it but that's probably ego. I also expect a flood of knowledge enabling me to see what I am more clearly. If I truly yearn for goodness and purity (I'm not sure now) then I will begin immediately to sort them out.

We got the clean slate already. The Atonement. Repentance is such a simple and happy thing. I LOVE to repent.

One of the most concise explanations of the possibility of loss was given by C.S. Lewis in the problem of pain:

"It is objected that the ultimate loss of a single soul means the defeat of omnipotence. And so it does. In creating beings with free will, omnipotence from the outset submits to the possibility of such defeat. What you call defeat, I call miracle: for to make things which are not Itself, and thus to become, in a sense, capable of being resisted by its own handiwork, is the most astounding and unimaginable of all the feats we attribute to the Deity. I willingly believe that the damned, are in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside. I do not mean that the ghosts may not wish to come out of hell, in the vague fashion wherein in an envious man 'wishes' to be happy: but they certainly do not will even the first preliminary stages of that self-abandonment through which alone the soul can reach any good. They enjoy forever the horrible freedom they have demanded, and are therefor self-enslaved; just as the blessed, forever submitting to obedience, become through all eternity more and more free.

In the long run all those who object to the doctrine of hell, is itself a question: 'What are you asking God to do?' To wipe out their past sins and, at all costs, to give them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help? But he has done so, on Calvary. To forgive them? They will not be forgiven. To leave them alon? Alas, I am afraid that is what he does.

One caution, and I have done. In order to rouse modern minds to an understanding of the issues, I ventured to introduce in this chapter a picture of a sort of bad man whom we most easily perceive to be truly bad. But when the picture has done that work, the sooner it is forgotten the better. In all discussions of Hell we should keep steadily before our eyes the possible damnation, not of our enemies not our friends (since both these disturb our reason) but of ourselves. This chapter is not about your wife or son, nor about Nero or Judas Iscariot; it is about you and me."

I think he got the idea. It should be noted that LDS theology agrees that the doors of hell are shut on the inside and that most people will in fact open the doors and leave to places of bliss beyond our understanding. I am not even opposed as some are to the idea that one can advance from kingdom to kingdom but I have no evidence that it can happen. I'm talking about places I can't imagine so I'm playing with counters not making informed observations about the kingdoms. The only kingdom I know about right now is hell and I know enough that it alone is worse than here.

[_huckelberry]

[quote="Hoops"][quote="huckelberry"]Hoops you sound realistic when you note that there are not a lot of requirements specified for receiving the benefits of the atonment. You start out sounding like you want to be broad in applying it to people, even people different than yourself. Then you propose that a person must accept the trinity or the payment is not good enough.

I would like to underline the disrespect in the phrase, payment not good enough. As though if the atonement was better put together it might apply to a few more people.

What you clear said, and I am quite sure you did not consciously mean, is that Gods plan is not strong enough to save people who did not understand and accept a theological doctrine.

Gazalems version is much more biblical. I do not think your disqualification system has a Biblical leg to stand on.

I think it could be considered that forgiving others is a requirement for receiving Gods forgiveness. Jesus said so. I think it could be considered that careing for peoples needs is a requirement. Jesus said so. I think it could be considered that respecting God and loving each other is involved. Jesus said so.

Where did Jesus say he would not forgive you if failed to be a part of Christian theology.

I thnk there is a real tradgedy in the fals belief that Christian theology is a sytem of barriers condemning people to hell. I think the church was called to be a help to all people in the world. God said so. I think theology exists only to help people do that. If it is twisted around into a pattern of exclusion it looses its savor and worth only to be poured upon the street for people to walk on.[/quote]

Ridiculous. If you're wanting to get into a discussion on the Trinity great. But your claim that I don't have Biblical leg to stand on is silly. You are so blinded by your LDS "revelations" that you choose to not read the Bible for what it is.

Nevertheless, one must accpept the Trinity for the validate the atonement because God is the only thing/person that is capable of the ultimate sacrifice - which is what is required by His own word. If you do not accept the highest/ultimate sacrifice is necessary than you deny the Bible and Christ's Godhood - which is fine, but does not dispute my point.

My only point was that western expression is not the only way to accept the Creator for ones own atonement.[/quote]

Hoops, I am a Trinitarian Christian, not LdS. I believe the atonement of Jesus Christ is the only path out of the trap of sin. So far my experience with trinity discussions with LDS is they try not to understand the trinity then complain it can't be uderstood. Boring discussion.