The Depressing Plan of Salvation

[_Hoops]

Hoops you sound realistic when you note that there are not a lot of requirements specified for receiving the benefits of the atonment. You start out sounding like you want to be broad in applying it to people, even people different than yourself. Then you propose that a person must accept the trinity or the payment is not good enough.

I would like to underline the disrespect in the phrase, payment not good enough. As though if the atonement was better put together it might apply to a few more people.

What you clear said, and I am quite sure you did not consciously mean, is that Gods plan is not strong enough to save people who did not understand and accept a theological doctrine.

Gazalems version is much more biblical. I do not think your disqualification system has a Biblical leg to stand on.

I think it could be considered that forgiving others is a requirement for receiving Gods forgiveness. Jesus said so. I think it could be considered that careing for peoples needs is a requirement. Jesus said so. I think it could be considered that respecting God and loving each other is involved. Jesus said so.

Where did Jesus say he would not forgive you if failed to be a part of Christian theology.

I thnk there is a real tradgedy in the fals belief that Christian theology is a sytem of barriers condemning people to hell. I think the church was called to be a help to all people in the world. God said so. I think theology exists only to help people do that. If it is twisted around into a pattern of exclusion it looses its savor and worth only to be poured upon the street for people to walk on.

Ridiculous. If you're wanting to get into a discussion on the Trinity great. But your claim that I don't have Biblical leg to stand on is silly. You are so blinded by your LDS "revelations" that you choose to not read the Bible for what it is.

Nevertheless, one must accpept the Trinity for the validate the atonement because God is the only thing/person that is capable of the ultimate sacrifice - which is what is required by His own word. If you do not accept the highest/ultimate sacrifice is necessary than you deny the Bible and Christ's Godhood - which is fine, but does not dispute my point.

My only point was that western expression is not the only way to accept the Creator for ones own atonement.

Hoops, I am a Trinitarian Christian, not LdS. I believe the atonement of Jesus Christ is the only path out of the trap of sin. So far my experience with trinity discussions with LDS is they try not to understand the trinity then complain it can't be uderstood. Boring discussion.

I would doubt that we are far off, if at all. But I had a hard time deciphering your comments. My point was that Jesus Christ as a member of the Trinity is an adequate sacrifice for all. And that the western expression of that event is not the only way to own it.

Now, where do we disagree?

[_Inconceivable]

What would I do?

For starters....

"If I could design and create Heaven, it would be a place where everyone resides. No one is left out. No one.

In my Heaven, those who lived lives creating pain and suffering will be healed, their cruelty and destruction evaporated from the universe. Those who have been hurt and wronged would release the sorrow and pain with forgiveness and understanding, and become healed and whole.


~dancer~

Hi TD,

I like your heaven. Question.. What if some people do not want what you are offering - to be healed? Or, worse yet, choose evil because maybe they are just wired that way or just embrace evil?

I've met a few people in my life that are evil.

So, what if? What to do with these that might refuse to recognize peace, love, forgiveness etc for what it is?

What is your plan B just in case?

(maybe worth starting a new thread?)

[_huckelberry]

hoops , I think we share the important issue you are thinking of. That is that the atonement does not really work if Jesus is not divine in a trinitarian sense. I do not think that proposing Jesus was superior or closer to the truth is a basis for makeing sense of the atonement. It is reasonable to ask how punishing person B going to pay for the crime of person A? Even if person B is better than person A there is something missing. However if person B who takes the punishment is the creator of person A and the person most fundamentally offended in the crime then an entirely different situation is in view. The Trinity and atonment shows how the atonement opens a path where we can participate in the life of Jesus. We can share the forgiveness we receive. Our receiving forgiveness because of his payment becomes a foundation of new life where love can grow.

I was thinking that the process of an individual being included in that new life does not depend upon that person have a correct understanding Old Testament either the atonement or the Trinity. I doubt that any of us has a complete and correct understanding. I do think better understanding offers better hope and encouragement. It holds the church together and invites the church to be Christ in the world. I do not think understanding should be disregarded. However I do think that it is the process of hope and sharing forgiveness that people do which is the fundamental faith act through which the atonement is applied to us. I see no reason that could not function in a state of ignorance or misunderstanding Old Testament the Trinity. Not that ignnorance is of no importance, I just doubt that it is an absolute barrier.

[_huckelberry]

Nehor, I liked your comment on the pervious page about sermons of war and disaster. I noticed people did not respond to that point. Embaressingly direct?

Of course it is part of the comment you made about forcing us into a mold of better behaviour. I think you are correct that God is not forcing people into goodness. In some basic way it is likely that goodness of human sprit does not happen without cooperation of will and action by the human spirit.

Now if God could just wave a hand for us all to arrive at perfection it would perverse to have us live in this imcomplete and troubled state that we live in. It would be blamworthy that we suffer deprivation and disaster. On the other hand if we cannever attain genuine goodness without the process of sacrificing some of self to help others, we must live in a place with real consequeces with no safety net to create real responsiblity. In short live in a world like ours.

There is a related idea which I think is important about faith. People say that if God exists he would easily demonstrate that. I have my doubts. Unless we develope a nature in our own sprit like God we are incapable of understanding wha tGod is enought to meaningfully say we know God exists. If God made a big demonstration all we would know was there was some big event. We would not know its heart. If God came as a person and said I am GOD we would know nothing. We would reasonably reply ,yah right. I do not think it is in any possible to know God exists any clearer than we do now untill we become more like God.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Nehor...

Wouldn't this mean forcibly altering people's personality until they weren't who they were? This is worse than either rape or murder.

Not to my way of thinking.

It means we all become who we truly are! :-)

~dancer~

[_huckelberry]

Dancer, I can certainly sympathize with your phrase, becoming who we really are. But the problem may be that there may be no way for that to happen without who we are now cooperating in the process. If so there is at least the possiblity of who we are now proceeding in a negative direction till there is no hope of arriving at who we really are.

I am inclined to think that becoming who we really are requres relationship to lots of other people, different kinds of other people. I think it involves helping people who have had difficulties and encouraging people who have success. I do not like the idea of just selecting some superiour variety of people. I may have sympathy with your unerversalism yet there seems to be a real danger. I think it is more realistic to say we must really turn our direction because some directions do not lead out of our negativity.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Inconceivable... :-)

like your heaven. Question.. What if some people do not want what you are offering - to be healed? Or, worse yet, choose evil because maybe they are just wired that way or just embrace evil?

First... let me be really clear that I think any speculation is silliness because I feel quite certain we can't even begin to imagine what is the reality of the universe. Its like asking a flea to understand the internet ya know? :-)

I'm just saying that folks get caught up in the ideas that heaven is just like our earth experience... and many seem to think they know exactly what it is like. I just don't see it at all!

I've met a few people in my life that are evil.

I personally do not see anyone as evil... (evil meaning something to do with satan or whatever).

I see folks who are very hurtful, cruel, and horrible... but I wonder if they had a different biology, a different world in which to grow up, a different way of their DNA interacting with their experiences if they might bring forth something completely different? Ya know?

I think I am a fairly decent person but I don't know how I would be if I was born into a completely different situation, with different DNA, with different experiences.

So, what if? What to do with these that might refuse to recognize peace, love, forgiveness etc for what it is?

Again I do not think heaven is a place to go to, or anything remotely like humans imagine... but I suppose if we are all creating our own heaven, (smile)... I would say that when our humanness (earthly form), is removed our true selves emerge which IS love, peace, oneness. Its not that there isn't a choice or that there is a choice. It is just who we are.

I think our egos are a result of evolution... and without the instinct or need for survival (and the survival of offspring), in a very earthly sense, the ego disappears which is the very reason for the desire for power, competition, separateness, domination, selfishness, control, eliticism, etc. etc. etc.

But, if you want a more concrete description of a pretend heaven, that is as good as any other I have heard, how about this... Perhaps we could each create a heaven exactly like we would wish it to be. With the reality of multiple universes and the possibility of cloning, how about everyone gets a heaven exactly as they wish? If God can create a trillion galaxies from a fireball, giving us each our own perfect experience of heaven should be a snap! (smile).

I just truly do not think there is even a remote possibility that heaven will be anything at all like an earthly experience... if heaven even exists as some place to go to, which I doubt even more! :-)

Just how I see it... :-)

~dancer~

[_The Nehor]

Hi Nehor...

Wouldn't this mean forcibly altering people's personality until they weren't who they were? This is worse than either rape or murder.

Not to my way of thinking.

It means we all become who we truly are! :-)

~dancer~

I truly am only what I become. There comes a time in life where children are no longer praised for their potential but instead as to what they chose to do and become. Humanity is the same way. We truly are what we decide to be.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Nehor...

I truly am only what I become.

I understand you see the world in this way.

I see it quite differently.

There comes a time in life where children are no longer praised for their potential but instead as to what they chose to do and become.

Again, my experience is quite different. I think what we become during this little blink of a speck of a moment in the eternities, (or at least the maybe 30 billion year existance of our universe), has little to do with the grandeur, or totality of what we are. Further, what we become is almost completely determined by the auspiciousness of where we were born, our DNA, our experiences, and perhaps the choices we make with this foundation. The foundation of course limiting or creating the possibilities of those choices.

In other words, there is MUCH more to the story. To think this little speckle of experience determines how we will be judged, and is reflective of what we can become, or what we are, just completely doesn't fit into my way of experiencing this world.

Humanity is the same way. We truly are what we decide to be.

Again, I understand this worldview.

I just see it quite differently.

I think there is so much more to the story that we can't even begin to imagine it all.

~dancer~

[_The Nehor]

Again, my experience is quite different. I think what we become during this little blink of a speck of a moment in the eternities, (or at least the maybe 30 billion year existance of our universe), has little to do with the grandeur, or totality of what we are. Further, what we become is almost completely determined by the auspiciousness of where we were born, our DNA, our experiences, and perhaps the choices we make with this foundation. The foundation of course limiting or creating the possibilities of those choices.

In other words, there is MUCH more to the story. To think this little speckle of experience determines how we will be judged, and is reflective of what we can become, or what we are, just completely doesn't fit into my way of experiencing this world.

I agree with you here more than you may think. I expect to see a lot of surprises when we die. People who are not good but just happened to be raised in nice families, learned to get by in the world, and blessed with good genetics but made almost no sacrifices for their fellow men will be revealed as what they are. On the other hand people raised in a horrid environment, crippled by neuroses, and saddled with a warped mind but who fought this trouble all their life with only minimal success may arise as a hero of epic proportions when breeding and environment are canceled out.

What scares me is that I'm much more likely to be the former than the latter.