The Depressing Plan of Salvation

[_KimberlyAnn]

Here here. Come visit me, Ghandi and Marley under my palm tree whenever you like. I can't say for sure whether it's gonna be the Terrestial or Telestial yet - I haven't really decided which one I should really aim for. (Not even considering whether I'll make it in...) All I know is that the Celestial Kingdom is out. And OD - well - good for a bit of reflection, but I'm sure the novelty wears off pretty quick...!

I'd come visit you, but you might confuse me with one of your token hot girls, RoP, and though I'm hot, I'm not a token. :P

KA

[Guest]

KimberlyAnn,
Your right. I should be more inclusive. OK - change of plan. There's gonna be 3 groups:

Hot chicks.
'Token' hot chicks.
'Ladies'.

At first, I'll just let you arrange yourselves. Free agency and all that. But if I feel I need to intervene ('Get my hands dirty' so to speak), then well - I can't rule it out I'm afraid.
...remember - this is MY heaven. Just because I'm not planning on the Celestial Kingdom, doesn't mean I'm not male!!

You'd be a 'hot chick'. No question. But unfortunately, that would excempt you from 'Lady' status. They are mutually exclusive catagories!

[_Yoda]

Sounds like a fun party in RoP's heaven!

LOL

[_Ren]

Sounds like a fun party in RoP's heaven!
LOL

I'm guessing that not many around here are heading to the Celestial Kingdom - so...
...you're invited too liz :D

Hmmm, thinking about it, I'm not sure if Ghandi would approve of the whole 'catagorising women' thing.
But I'll just tell him to lighten up and have another Corona...

Oh -and just to be fair, the guys will be catagorised too. Only 2 catagories though. 'Dudes', and '********'.

[_Hoops]

Hi Hoops...

Okay, do I have this correct then? She would rather be in a lower kingdom because the "plan" just doesn't feel right? IF so, then how does one quantify the differences between the kingdoms to determine whether this view is rational. I am, of course, not saying TD is irrational, just trying to understand the point.

Yes, Beastie got it right.

I do not want to be with, let alone worship, a God such is described by the LDS belief, or a God who designed such a plan.

And, I have no desire to be a Queen, Goddess, polygamous wife, or procreate for eternity. I don't like the idea of eternity as an extended form of Earth with the same issues including power, elitism, male dominance, degraded women who can't interact with their children, (and have to send some of them into OD), etc. etc. etc. The whole thing just isn't a place that sounds even remotely palatable let alone heavenly. A God of this heaven is not a God that I want to spend eternity with. The CKHL is just not a place in which I would like to visit, let alone spend eternity.

I think folks create God as a reflection of what they think is good (we have of course the stories of some men's dreams... power, authority, harems. etc), but personally, as I stated, if there is such place a place as heaven, my guess it is nothing like the images created by various men.

~dancer~
Thanks Beastie!

Okay, TD, see how this sits with you. While I am a ev mainstream Christian I have this thought which can be NEITHER supported nor contradicted by the Bible.

The Bible clearly dictates belief in God and that we are sinful at birth (contrary to LDS doctrine) and that a loving AND JUST God requires payment for our sin. To that end, the eternal Jesus Christ - as within the trinity - is the vehicle by which that penalty is paid. However, the Bible never clearly explains how our acceptance/relationship with Christ need be expressed. To claim that the ev way is the only way is, in my mind, ridiculous. I can see our relationship with Christ expressed in many different ways including but not limited to Native American practices, etc. The caveat, however, and this is clear from the Bible is that one must accept the Trinity - or the payment is not enough. And one must accept God, who, by definition, can be only one God. And one must accept that we are NOT Gods, thereby retaining the supremacy of God.

Just something that has been bouncing around my tiny head for a while. I certainly could be disabused of this notion quite easily.

I have more thoughts on it but I think you get my drift.

Thoughts?

[_Ren]

The caveat, however, and this is clear from the Bible is that one must accept the Trinity - or the payment is not enough. And one must accept God, who, by definition, can be only one God. And one must accept that we are NOT Gods, thereby retaining the supremacy of God.

So does that effectively leave - say - Hindu's, up ****-creek without a paddle? Or am I reading you wrong?

[_barrelomonkeys]

Just chiming in here to say that most mainstream Christians I know think about things in their own terms. Regardless of what the Bible says most of them I know believe that good people go to heaven. That's it. I like simple. And that works for me too.

And it sort of makes sense that they would think that.. because the implications of a God of love sending good people to hell doesn't jive too well.

[_The Nehor]

Show me a good man and I'll tell you he's going to heaven. I haven't met one. I'm not one.

[_Seven]

I had a conversation with an EV about heaven and hell the other day. I let her know that I don't attend church right now but my husband and children go to the Mormon church. (she suspected we were Mormon from our big family) She asked me all about Mormon doctrine on heaven and I told her the parts that I believe in.

She did not like the idea of a spirit prison where people can repent and be saved.
I explained that it really is the entire purpose of the atonement to desire for all of our brothers and sisters to be in heaven with us. If we want people condemned to hell for eternity then why should Christ forgive us of our sins? I explained that Mormons believe in justice and mercy-that there will be consequences for all sins but because of Christ, we still can repent. The more serious the sin, the more painful and difficult repentence will be. I didn't get into the 3 levels of the Celestial Kingdom or becoming Gods, but told her that everybody is saved in a kingdom of glory-even those that don't believe in Christ during mortality. That was Christ's gift to each of us.

I didn't have the time to go into all of the other details of Mormon heaven and doctrines but I had clearly troubled her. The interesting part of the conversation was her need and belief to place certain people in hell because of what the Bible says. I shared with her that to place people in hell FOR ETERNITY doesn't feel very Christian to me. Hell is a state we will be in for our poor choices and sin. If we don't repent we will remain in that state. This woman would rather believe that Christians go to heaven and atheists go to hell with the really evil people.

We also discussed the Bible and my belief that it is not perfect, and has been influenced by men,culture, contains translation errors, etc.. I told her that it doesn't feel Godly to me when I read about incest, massacring women and children in Gods name, and polygamy in the Old Testament. How can we condemn Islamic extremists if we praise the same actions in the Bible committed by "God's chosen?" That didn't go over very well either.

[_Gazelam]

The requirement for salvation is taking on the name of Christ through Covenant.

People are divided into the various kingdoms based on their adherence to the covenant and the principles associated with that covenant.

Hell, or outer darkness, is reserved for those who have a full understanding of the doctrines involved and openly rebel against them. Of coarce these peope are cast off, why make them miserable by forceing them to spend time with someone they hate? Everyone will spend eternity with those individuals that share their views.

Those shortsighted and foolish enough to hate God and his plan of salvation wont have a thing to worry about. You wont have to be anywhere near him.