What is the worst thing for apologists to defend?

[_The Nehor]

That's fair enough. He is everything and everywhere for you?

I was sort of hoping for more than just a one liner.

I'll try to do more. Imagining a world without God is hard. He is the ultimate Fact upon which all other facts rely. I imagine that if in some way the world was natural sentience would be much different if it existed at all. I imagine humanity would be more accepting of their lives than they are now. Humans seem to think that life is unfair and not the way it should be....which is odd since it's always been this way. I think that is an impetus God gave us so we wouldn't feel completely at home here. I imagine the desire to have a God would be non-existent. Humbling yourself before a deity has no inherent survival value so I can't see an evolutionary reason for it. I also imagine we'd have less of a sense of awe and a diminished appreciation of beauty. They also seems to serve no real purpose. Many of the things attached to sentience serve no real survival purpose. They do make sense if a God wants the people of Earth to be running all over creation in a physical and mental sense looking for him.

[_barrelomonkeys]

That's fair enough. He is everything and everywhere for you?

I was sort of hoping for more than just a one liner.

I'll try to do more. Imagining a world without God is hard. He is the ultimate Fact upon which all other facts rely. I imagine that if in some way the world was natural sentience would be much different if it existed at all. I imagine humanity would be more accepting of their lives than they are now. Humans seem to think that life is unfair and not the way it should be....which is odd since it's always been this way. I think that is an impetus God gave us so we wouldn't feel completely at home here. I imagine the desire to have a God would be non-existent. Humbling yourself before a deity has no inherent survival value so I can't see an evolutionary reason for it. I also imagine we'd have less of a sense of awe and a diminished appreciation of beauty. They also seems to serve no real purpose. Many of the things attached to sentience serve no real survival purpose. They do make sense if a God wants the people of Earth to be running all over creation in a physical and mental sense looking for him.

Great answer. Thank you!

I am having issues (sometimes) with my own desire to know or understand God. I feel it's human nature to seek this but I can't say why that is. I wish I knew. I'm glad your answers work for you.

[_The Nehor]

For example: God could have alerted the people who are supposed to be his mouthpieces and helpers that Hitler was getting ready to commit genocide and, together they could have worked to prevent it. Or maybe God would just listen to all the people who pray to soften the hearts of the jackasses and actually, you know, touch and soften their hearts. He's God, isn't he? He can change hearts and all that. Why is it all this little game with God? Like a game of "mother may I"?

The problem is most of the people asking for God to soften others hearts are jackasses themselves and need the treatment themselves. God can change hearts of those who allow him to. That's the game.

[_The Nehor]

Beastie, don't you know God is on the important matters of finding car keys, kittens, and making sure middle class Americans can make their next mortage payment?

And that's not important?

[_The Nehor]

But it doesn't verify it. Think through the math of coincidence and selective memory. What if a certain "quixotic brain" generates guesses about what will happen but that these guesses are presented to the conscious self as revelations. Then imagine that only the ones that do happen are remembered and counted in the long run.

Then there is always the possibilty just being wrong about having known in advance. Internal subconscious confablulation happens in normal people but some people are just immersed in it. Just like with deja vu, the fact that I think I knew someting in advance doesn't mean I really did.

To see what's really going on we have to look at the big picture; what is going on with populations of people who think they have such experiences.
The track record of those who claim to get knowledge by supernatural means looks dismal to me; exactly what one would expect if none were real.

Tarski is going to call on the men in white coats to take me away :)

[_barrelomonkeys]

For example: God could have alerted the people who are supposed to be his mouthpieces and helpers that Hitler was getting ready to commit genocide and, together they could have worked to prevent it. Or maybe God would just listen to all the people who pray to soften the hearts of the jackasses and actually, you know, touch and soften their hearts. He's God, isn't he? He can change hearts and all that. Why is it all this little game with God? Like a game of "mother may I"?

The problem is most of the people asking for God to soften others hearts are jackasses themselves and need the treatment themselves. God can change hearts of those who allow him to. That's the game.

Nehor, I don't think that's a fair statement. There are innocent victims the world over (children) that are precious humans with no ill intent and have harmed no one. When they call for God to change the hearts of their victimizers they are not jackasses.

This actually, despite sometimes feeling something more, is the one thing that makes me believe God is not a personal God.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Tarski is going to call on the men in white coats to take me away :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXZMZ-XvvzI

[_asbestosman]

In a world without God, I'd also expect the incident with the 3 witnesses to play out differently. I would expect, for example, that at least one of them would have deniedtheir testimonies to expose a fraud. You know how it goes: two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

[_asbestosman]

Tarski is going to call on the men in white coats to take me away :)

Tarski himself has had what he thought were visions / angels, but now things it was something like an epileptic seizure and speculates thta Joseph Smith's First Vision was a similar thing.

[_The Nehor]

Tarski is going to call on the men in white coats to take me away :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXZMZ-XvvzI

Haven't heard that song since High School. I thought it applied to me even then :)