asbestosman wrote:In a world without God, I'd also expect the incident with the 3 witnesses to play out differently. I would expect, for example, that at least one of them would have deniedtheir testimonies to expose a fraud. You know how it goes: two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead.
The math changes dramatically if they were all in on the fraud, however. How much would you have to hate another person in order for it to be worth exposing yourself as a fraudster in order to take him down with you?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:The math changes dramatically if they were all in on the fraud, however. How much would you have to hate another person in order for it to be worth exposing yourself as a fraudster in order to take him down with you?
Very little if I'm lying on my death bed.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
beastie wrote: This is why it's obvious, if you think about it, that the world with God looks exactly like the world without God would look like. If it didn't, people wouldn't have to have FAITH in the first place.
If God allows his creatures to "choose you this day whom you will serve", how would this work if it became obvious to all that he had intervened in the world...even just once. He wouldn't be allowing people to be jackasses at this point without, well, looking like jackasses. The way it is, people can be jackasses and get away with it...for now. Simply put, in a world where it is obvious to all that God intervenes when humans are acting like jackasses then the choice to be one becomes somewhat more complicated and convoluted. If someone is going to be a jackass, then don't you think they ought to prove themselves as being one rather than limiting their opportunities to do so through direct intervention by God himself...in every instance?
I'm at work the rest of the day so won't be able to look back here until tomorrow or Monday.
Sethbag wrote:The math changes dramatically if they were all in on the fraud, however. How much would you have to hate another person in order for it to be worth exposing yourself as a fraudster in order to take him down with you?
Very little if I'm lying on my death bed.
I suppose, if you don't care a fig about your legacy. Most people with whom I'm familiar, however, do care what people will think about them after their deaths. I don't think the whole "why didn't anyone expose Smith?" argument holds up at all if those we're asking about were also in on the fraud.
And you know what? Some people are just gullible enough that they never even knew they were being conned. If you recall, didn't Josiah Stowell actually testify that Joseph Smith could see treasures through the magic rock in his hat? And this was at the trial of Joseph Smith for defrauding Stowell, at the complaint of, if I recall correctly, Stowell's relatives. He was apparently so taken in by the con that he couldn't recognize that he'd even been conned.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:I suppose, if you don't care a fig about your legacy. Most people with whom I'm familiar, however, do care what people will think about them after their deaths.
Consider these cases:
1) I'm an atheist and I lied about the vision for personal gain. In that case I don't believe in an afterlife so why worry about my legacy? I'm not saying nobody would, just that I don't see the point.
2) I'm actually a god-fearing man, but was blinded by greed/fear/whatever. In that case why not die with a clear conscience?
Some people are just gullible enough that they never even knew they were being conned.
True, but three people--all three who had the experience? I could imagine three in a crowd of a hundred, but all three especially considering that some (or was it all) helped with the translation?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
The Nehor wrote:Tarski is going to call on the men in white coats to take me away :)
Tarski himself has had what he thought were visions / angels, but now things it was something like an epileptic seizure and speculates thta Joseph Smith's First Vision was a similar thing.
Hmmm.
I have had some experiences but I don't recall saying that I had seen angels.
barrelomonkeys wrote:Beastie, don't you know God is on the important matters of finding car keys, kittens, and making sure middle class Americans can make their next mortage payment?
And that's not important?
Oh! How did I miss this?
Nehor, you're kidding I hope! I'm always so shocked when I see average middle class Americans praising God for their blessings while many other suffer while pleading for God.
I suppose I have issues with boundaries and empathy because it bothers me that I have blessings while many others do not. If God decides to help my find my car keys I'll send him on over to Darfur to help a child from the genocide occurring there.
I do NOT *oh snap! I used caps* understand how anyone can believe with a straight face that God gives little blessings to comfy, white bread Americans and lets the rest of his children wail in pain.
Tarski wrote:Hmmm. I have had some experiences but I don't recall saying that I had seen angels.
CFR
My mistake. I'm sure I remember, however, that you have had experiences similar to what you think Joseph Smith had.
To what he might have had. In that case, it would have originally been beyond words and only later "confabulated" into angels and then finally into God and Son.
I say, might because he may have made much of it up. No way to tell.
barrelomonkeys wrote:Beastie, don't you know God is on the important matters of finding car keys, kittens, and making sure middle class Americans can make their next mortage payment?
And that's not important?
Oh! How did I miss this?
Nehor, you're kidding I hope! I'm always so shocked when I see average middle class Americans praising God for their blessings while many other suffer while pleading for God.
I suppose I have issues with boundaries and empathy because it bothers me that I have blessings while many others do not. If God decides to help my find my car keys I'll send him on over to Darfur to help a child from the genocide occurring there.
I do NOT *oh snap! I used caps* understand how anyone can believe with a straight face that God gives little blessings to comfy, white bread Americans and lets the rest of his children wail in pain.
Hey Barrell,
I think you make a great point. And westerners are so wrapped up in our narcissism that we assume God is as concerned about us in the same way. I have thought for a long time that God is much more interested in our character. His will is for us to be more like Him. It is not "necessarily" his will, and thus requires his intervention, that we find our car keys - I don't think he really cares. Barrell, when you hear that stuff, don't think we're all like that.
Still, if that floats your boat, I have no problem with it.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.