What is the worst thing for apologists to defend?

[_asbestosman]

I say, might because he may have made much of it up. No way to tell.

I think the best one can do besides the spiritual confirmation is to look at Joseph's actions. Did he deny the story in the face of persecution?

[_Polygamy Porter]

I say, might because he may have made much of it up. No way to tell.

I think the best one can do besides the spiritual confirmation is to look at Joseph's actions. Did he deny the story in the face of persecution?

He was not the first nor the last to stick to his story even while facing possible death.

Your point has been invalidated. Try again.

[_asbestosman]

I say, might because he may have made much of it up. No way to tell.

I think the best one can do besides the spiritual confirmation is to look at Joseph's actions. Did he deny the story in the face of persecution?

He was not the first nor the last to stick to his story even while facing possible death.

So? Maybe the others who died also genuinely believed their stories. I think Joseph Smith's life is a bit different anyhow in that he had many more opportunities to deny his vision given that he first mentioned it while he was a young teenage boy.

Anyhow, my point wasn't to prove that Joseph's experience was genuine but rather to provide evidence that pointed in favor of that over pure fraud.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Beastie, don't you know God is on the important matters of finding car keys, kittens, and making sure middle class Americans can make their next mortage payment?

And that's not important?

Oh! How did I miss this?

Nehor, you're kidding I hope! I'm always so shocked when I see average middle class Americans praising God for their blessings while many other suffer while pleading for God.

I suppose I have issues with boundaries and empathy because it bothers me that I have blessings while many others do not. If God decides to help my find my car keys I'll send him on over to Darfur to help a child from the genocide occurring there.

I do NOT *oh snap! I used caps* understand how anyone can believe with a straight face that God gives little blessings to comfy, white bread Americans and lets the rest of his children wail in pain.

Hey Barrell,

I think you make a great point. And westerners are so wrapped up in our narcissism that we assume God is as concerned about us in the same way. I have thought for a long time that God is much more interested in our character. His will is for us to be more like Him. It is not "necessarily" his will, and thus requires his intervention, that we find our car keys - I don't think he really cares. Barrell, when you hear that stuff, don't think we're all like that.

Still, if that floats your boat, I have no problem with it.

Well I don't believe all Christians are like that. What epitomizes a Christian to me is the welfare and love for their fellow humans. I'm just shocked when I do hear things like that. I agree that God would be more interested in our character. What we do defines us.

[_beastie]

If God allows his creatures to "choose you this day whom you will serve", how would this work if it became obvious to all that he had intervened in the world...even just once. He wouldn't be allowing people to be jackasses at this point without, well, looking like jackasses. The way it is, people can be jackasses and get away with it...for now. Simply put, in a world where it is obvious to all that God intervenes when humans are acting like jackasses then the choice to be one becomes somewhat more complicated and convoluted. If someone is going to be a jackass, then don't you think they ought to prove themselves as being one rather than limiting their opportunities to do so through direct intervention by God himself...in every instance?

You do realize that you are proving my point - the world with God looks exactly like the world without God, and believers explain this away just as you have done in this paragraph. Believers say it has to be that way to preserve the ability to have faith and the ability to choose. Of course, the right to the ability to choose doesn't hold up in LDSism because people chose in the pre-existence when the existence of God was plainly manifest. So all you are left with is the ability to have faith. Believers have difficulty explaining just why faith is an appropriate ultimate goal for the godbeing.

Anyway, I think you misunderstand human nature. Human beings are put into jail every day for violating the law - that's your "just once" - and yet many still violate the law. And the pre-existence proves that people would do the same thing even with God plainly manifest and his "law" plainly manifest. According to LDSism, Satan even willingly began playing his role when the plan of salvation was known due to haven been utilized in other worlds, so the outcome was already cast.

But, aside from all that, my point was that the world with God looks exactly like the world without God (and believers concede this when they construct arguments such as you have), and that is why, to me, adding a God is unnecessary, complicated, extraneous, and thereby highly unlikely.

[_Ray A]

I would say that the worst thing apologists have to defend is that some anti-Mormons may have a point, to a limited degree, to a limited extent, when they (angry exmos) can see through the anger to some form of limited reasoning free of emotional anger and angst, and in one or two moments of fairness can actually concede that they (Mormons) are human beings who think like all human beings, and are not a threat to the world and sanity.

Giving vile and angry exmos some degree of latitiude, I think, is probably one hell of a defense Mormons occasionally concede to. But if they didn't - I would fully understand why.

[_harmony]

I would say that the worst thing apologists have to defend is that some anti-Mormons may have a point, to a limited degree, to a limited extent, when they (angry exmos) can see through the anger to some form of limited reasoning free of emotional anger and angst, and in one or two moments of fairness can actually concede that they (Mormons) are human beings who think like all human beings, and are not a threat to the world and sanity.

Giving vile and angry exmos some degree of latitiude, I think, is probably one hell of a defense Mormons occasionally concede to. But if they didn't - I would fully understand why.

And what exactly is that point?

[_Tarski]

I say, might because he may have made much of it up. No way to tell.

I think the best one can do besides the spiritual confirmation is to look at Joseph's actions..

I agree and I did. You forget how many of his actions are questionable to put it mildly.

[_The Nehor]

Oh! How did I miss this?

Nehor, you're kidding I hope! I'm always so shocked when I see average middle class Americans praising God for their blessings while many other suffer while pleading for God.

I suppose I have issues with boundaries and empathy because it bothers me that I have blessings while many others do not. If God decides to help my find my car keys I'll send him on over to Darfur to help a child from the genocide occurring there.

I do NOT *oh snap! I used caps* understand how anyone can believe with a straight face that God gives little blessings to comfy, white bread Americans and lets the rest of his children wail in pain.

I don't know about the others in pain. God is also not impoverished and him aiding me in mundane things does not keep him from doing anything else he does. I don't believe he gives only comfy middle class Americans blessings. I have never been to Darfur but I suspect if I did I would see great courage, great miracles, and people being cruel to people. There would also be a lot of people in pain....just like here.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Oh! How did I miss this?

Nehor, you're kidding I hope! I'm always so shocked when I see average middle class Americans praising God for their blessings while many other suffer while pleading for God.

I suppose I have issues with boundaries and empathy because it bothers me that I have blessings while many others do not. If God decides to help my find my car keys I'll send him on over to Darfur to help a child from the genocide occurring there.

I do NOT *oh snap! I used caps* understand how anyone can believe with a straight face that God gives little blessings to comfy, white bread Americans and lets the rest of his children wail in pain.

I don't know about the others in pain. God is also not impoverished and him aiding me in mundane things does not keep him from doing anything else he does. I don't believe he gives only comfy middle class Americans blessings. I have never been to Darfur but I suspect if I did I would see great courage, great miracles, and people being cruel to people. There would also be a lot of people in pain....just like here.

You don't know about others in pain? What? I don't believe you!

I just don't understand why He WOULD help with the mundane when there are people being slaughtered and raped. Children weeping over the dead bodies of their parents and siblings. Mothers falling to the ground with babes in their arms.

Explain to me why God helps with the mundane and can't seem to help the innocent from experiencing pain! I do NOT understand that! This, quite frankly, is why I became a deist. If God was here at one point, and created a lil sensor in my brain to know Him I can accept that. But I also believe He deserted me and this world long, long ago.

I am astounded that you think you would see suffering in Darfur that would anyway compare to the suffering of Americans.