What is the worst thing for apologists to defend?

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_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Hoops wrote:Hey Barrell,

I think you make a great point. And westerners are so wrapped up in our narcissism that we assume God is as concerned about us in the same way. I have thought for a long time that God is much more interested in our character. His will is for us to be more like Him. It is not "necessarily" his will, and thus requires his intervention, that we find our car keys - I don't think he really cares. Barrell, when you hear that stuff, don't think we're all like that.

Still, if that floats your boat, I have no problem with it.


I don't think God limits himself to minor problems but I don't think he excludes them either. I don't think it's narcissistic to ask for help. It's not as if God's perception is so limited that because my friend in Utah lost his keys today he can't help my friend's daughter's severe illness or help both of them through their worries.

My God is more personal. Why not help me find my car keys?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

<image deleted because it was too emotional. I should use my words rather than images>

You explain to me why I should thank God for my home and children when I see that. I really want to know! I don't know how others do it. I can't see suffering without feeling it myself. I can't see suffering and believe in God.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

I can tell I'm about to spaz out. On the brink. I won't reply for a while to this thread Nehor, in case you reply to me.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

barrelomonkeys wrote:Image

You explain to me why I should thank God for my home and children when I see that. I really want to know! I don't know how others do it. I can't see suffering without feeling it myself. I can't see suffering and believe in God.


Why is that child in the photo suffering? What conditions led to his/her suffering?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

barrelomonkeys wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:Beastie, don't you know God is on the important matters of finding car keys, kittens, and making sure middle class Americans can make their next mortage payment?


And that's not important?


Oh! How did I miss this?

Nehor, you're kidding I hope! I'm always so shocked when I see average middle class Americans praising God for their blessings while many other suffer while pleading for God.

I suppose I have issues with boundaries and empathy because it bothers me that I have blessings while many others do not. If God decides to help my find my car keys I'll send him on over to Darfur to help a child from the genocide occurring there.

I do NOT *oh snap! I used caps* understand how anyone can believe with a straight face that God gives little blessings to comfy, white bread Americans and lets the rest of his children wail in pain.


Hi Barrelomonkeys,

I feel the same as you. A while back on this board I had started a thread on this very topic because there are so many people, especially children, who have real needs. Children who are orphaned, tortured, sex slaves, witness the massacre of their familes........ I want God to intervene with them, not spoiled Americans who actually believe God helped save them from illness, car accidents, where they should move, finding their car keys. etc. . I don't believe God is answering the prayers of Americans anymore than others. How sad that so many believers attribute their luxeries and "blessings" to a God that favors them over another.

I had a conversation a while back with my ultra TBM SIL on some charity work I wanted to start for children. I told her of the atrocities in Africa, and other places around the world that I felt God has ignored. I shared my thoughts on prayer and that I do not ask God to bless me with anything except the ability/inspiration to help those who are suffering. We talked for a while about Darfur, Iraq, Thailand, and other places of crisis. About 10 minutes after I finished pouring out my heart, she told me how blessed her family was to be moving out of state. God had answered their prayers on where to move and selling their home because they were faithful tithe payers. Their tithing was paid each month with debt and they were moving because they were in too deep! She really wanted a home they couldn't afford and told me how hard she had been praying that somehow they could get this house. Turns out they did get the house when the other one sold for more than planned, so she believes her prayers were answered. So God cares that she gets this beautiful home while He ignores the pleas and cries for help when children are having their limbs hacked off in Africa.

In LDS chapels each month (testimony meeting) you get to hear story after story of Mormons that believe God has blessed them and answered their prayers. Some of this stems from the belief many LDS have about the pre existence. There are many Mormons that believe people are placed in their circumstances because of how faithful they were in the pre existence. So an innocent child suffering at the hands of a pedophile/murderer must have been naughty in heaven. They believe millions of Africans are starving and suffering because of the pre existence. I brought this up with a bunch of women from Relief Society when I was struggling to understand suffering in the world that God seems to ignore. Almost every one of them believes we were born in America because of how faithful we were before we came! It's sickening & disturbing to me that people buy into this belief that they were so much better than another before we came to earth.

I get e-mails all the time from TBMs that share a story of how God helped them win a prize for being faithful, saved someones house in the church from burning down in a fire, protected the missionaries etc. If the story has a good ending, then God answered their prayers. If it has a bad ending, then it was His will and a blessing for them to have this challenge that brings them closer to God. It's a win win for believers.

I do believe if God exists, He expects me to help others in need because I have been given so much and that is why He doesn't intervene. If there is a test, I believe He wants us to sacrifice for another so we can grow and progress. That's the only way I can make sense of a world where God has allowed so much evil and suffering to exist.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

Here is a disgusting statement from Joseph Fielding Smith on why LDS are more special than those suffering.

“There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with OTHER DISADVANTAGES, while another is BORN WHITE with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there.”
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 61)


and this... http://www.xmission.com/~country/chngwrld/chap10.htm

From this doctrine of the pre-existence of the soul, came the idea of some spirits being more noble than others. Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham talks of "the noble and great ones" (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham 3:22). The Mormon leaders taught that the "more noble" or choice spirits are born as Mormons. Blacks, on the other hand, were considered to have been more unfaithful in the pre-existence than any of the spirits who were allowed to take bodies. Apostle McConkie maintained that "those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Mormon Doctrine, pp.476-77).
Mormon historian B. H. Roberts asserted that in the pre-existence the Negroes "through their indifference or lack of integrity to righteousness, rendered themselves unworthy of the Priesthood and its powers, and hence it is withheld from them to this day (The Contributor, vol. 6, pp.296-97).
Apostle Mark E. Petersen presented the Mormon thinking concerning the doctrine of pre-existence:


Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the preexistent life? . . . can we account in any other way for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest Africa, or in flood-ridden China, or among the starving hordes of India, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as

<Page 294>

Latter-day Saints. These are rewards and punishments, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with sinners and saints, rewarding all according to their deeds. . . .
Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. A Chinese, born in China with a dark skin, and with all the handicaps of that race seems to have littie opportunity. But think of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?

Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood. . . . This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory (Race Problems--As They Affect The Church, Address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954).
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

barrelomonkeys wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:Oh! How did I miss this?

Nehor, you're kidding I hope! I'm always so shocked when I see average middle class Americans praising God for their blessings while many other suffer while pleading for God.

I suppose I have issues with boundaries and empathy because it bothers me that I have blessings while many others do not. If God decides to help my find my car keys I'll send him on over to Darfur to help a child from the genocide occurring there.

I do NOT *oh snap! I used caps* understand how anyone can believe with a straight face that God gives little blessings to comfy, white bread Americans and lets the rest of his children wail in pain.


I don't know about the others in pain. God is also not impoverished and him aiding me in mundane things does not keep him from doing anything else he does. I don't believe he gives only comfy middle class Americans blessings. I have never been to Darfur but I suspect if I did I would see great courage, great miracles, and people being cruel to people. There would also be a lot of people in pain....just like here.


You don't know about others in pain? What? I don't believe you!

I just don't understand why He WOULD help with the mundane when there are people being slaughtered and raped. Children weeping over the dead bodies of their parents and siblings. Mothers falling to the ground with babes in their arms.

Explain to me why God helps with the mundane and can't seem to help the innocent from experiencing pain! I do NOT understand that! This, quite frankly, is why I became a deist. If God was here at one point, and created a lil sensor in my brain to know Him I can accept that. But I also believe He deserted me and this world long, long ago.

I am astounded that you think you would see suffering in Darfur that would anyway compare to the suffering of Americans.


I didn't say I didn't know about pain, I'm just saying that I can't speak for the people in Darfur or starving in Africa or repressed in Asia or whatever. Suffering is suffering, wherever it is. I have seen parents lose children and children lose parents. I know rape victims. I know a family that lost a father to a murderer. I've seen God help some of them. I did what I could think of to help them. The difference is one of scale, not in the amount of pain. Pain is part of mortality, whether you are innocent or guilty. Pain hurts and I don't like it. I can say it has made me better.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Polygamy Porter
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Post by _Polygamy Porter »

Jersey Girl wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:Image

You explain to me why I should thank God for my home and children when I see that. I really want to know! I don't know how others do it. I can't see suffering without feeling it myself. I can't see suffering and believe in God.


Why is that child in the photo suffering? What conditions led to his/her suffering?
Because his/her parents were evil non Mormons and nobody prayed to the great god to help the kid.

Either that or a zealous journalist staged the shot in hopes of winning an award.
_Trinity
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Post by _Trinity »

I am an admitted idealist. I like the idea of perfection, of universal happiness. I am fairly certain it is this idealism that exacerbated my status to agnosticism. I'd rather not believe in a God at all than the so-called perfect, loving, omniscient God who would create such a world where such nasty things and nasty people and nasty places and nasty circumstances exist. I would rather buy into the LDS Satan's plan of insisting everyone live righteously so that suffering does not occur. It boggles my mind to read posts such as this where giant, torturous atrocities have (and still do) occur in this world, yet someone has the balls to suggest that God still has his hand in this universe. If God still has his hand in this universe, you better show me some alleviation of suffering...otherwise you are just selling me a jackass God. God doesn't get to help someone find their keys, while God ignored the Iraqi 14 year old girl who was repeatedly raped by US military, her family and herself stabbed, and then gasoline poured on her. That is a jackass God. If God is all powerful, and all-loving, he could, nor would sit by without intervening in these atrocities.

So which is it to be? Is God present, but maintains a deistic position - not intervening (keeping a level playing field)...or does God play favorites and has a sadistic liking for watching the suffering of his "children?"

Or is God nonexistent? The only options in my mind are a nonexistent god or a deistic one if anyone would like to preserve the notion of a perfect, all-loving, all-seeing God. Anything less is just a jackass God.
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Trinity wrote:I am an admitted idealist. I like the idea of perfection, of universal happiness. I am fairly certain it is this idealism that exacerbated my status to agnosticism. I'd rather not believe in a God at all than the so-called perfect, loving, omniscient God who would create such a world where such nasty things and nasty people and nasty places and nasty circumstances exist. I would rather buy into the LDS Satan's plan of insisting everyone live righteously so that suffering does not occur. It boggles my mind to read posts such as this where giant, torturous atrocities have (and still do) occur in this world, yet someone has the balls to suggest that God still has his hand in this universe. If God still has his hand in this universe, you better show me some alleviation of suffering...otherwise you are just selling me a jackass God. God doesn't get to help someone find their keys, while God ignored the Iraqi 14 year old girl who was repeatedly raped by US military, her family and herself stabbed, and then gasoline poured on her. That is a jackass God. If God is all powerful, and all-loving, he could, nor would sit by without intervening in these atrocities.

So which is it to be? Is God present, but maintains a deistic position - not intervening (keeping a level playing field)...or does God play favorites and has a sadistic liking for watching the suffering of his "children?"

Or is God nonexistent? The only options in my mind are a nonexistent god or a deistic one if anyone would like to preserve the notion of a perfect, all-loving, all-seeing God. Anything less is just a jackass God.


Trinity, your thoughts mirror my own.
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