The Nehor wrote:
Well, there's all the stuff he's done for me already. The money he gave me that I didn't earn or deserve.
Robbing in the name of god is one of the many issues I have a problem with.
The restitution of... animal sacrifice!?!?
-
_SatanWasSetUp
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1183
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:40 pm
Robbing in the name of god is one of the many issues I have a problem with.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
-
_The Nehor
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 11832
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am
SatanWasSetUp wrote:The Nehor wrote:
Well, there's all the stuff he's done for me already. The money he gave me that I didn't earn or deserve.
Robbing in the name of god is one of the many issues I have a problem with.
It wasn't robbery, you would call it luck.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
-
_The Nehor
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 11832
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am
barrelomonkeys wrote:I don't know what you mean by this Nehor. But I'm Biblically illiterate so maybe that’s why I'm not gettin it.
I'm comparing. The things God has done for me no person could do. I can kill someone. Most people can. Killing is easy, physically anyways.
We also consider death to be a much bigger deal than God does. He deals with it daily and since dying physically has already been corrected it's not what he's most concerned about.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
-
_barrelomonkeys
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 3004
- Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:00 pm
The Nehor wrote:barrelomonkeys wrote:I don't know what you mean by this Nehor. But I'm Biblically illiterate so maybe that’s why I'm not gettin it.
I'm comparing. The things God has done for me no person could do. I can kill someone. Most people can. Killing is easy, physically anyways.
We also consider death to be a much bigger deal than God does. He deals with it daily and since dying physically has already been corrected it's not what he's most concerned about.
Oh gotcha! Thanks for the clarification.
-
_SatanWasSetUp
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1183
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:40 pm
The Nehor wrote:SatanWasSetUp wrote:The Nehor wrote:
Well, there's all the stuff he's done for me already. The money he gave me that I didn't earn or deserve.
Robbing in the name of god is one of the many issues I have a problem with.
It wasn't robbery, you would call it luck.
Like the wide variety of people who win the lottery, including atheists?
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
-
_The Nehor
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 11832
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am
SatanWasSetUp wrote:Like the wide variety of people who win the lottery, including atheists?
Perhaps, I just happen to sometimes know in advance which most atheists don't.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
-
_Lucretia MacEvil
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am
The Nehor wrote:Mercury wrote:So when Allah, the FSM or invisible pink unicorns help others they are doing...what? Practicing wishful thinkinking?
Why not just chalk up your good fortune to yourself instead of giving cred to your imaginary friend?
God answers to the name of Allah, he's not hung up on names. I could chalk it up to me but that would be intellectually dishonest. Many of those gifts came after I asked my imaginary friend for them and he told me they were on the way. So my invisible friend has connections and can get things done. Why just today I was given a quiz in a class I'm taking. It was matching ten items in column A to ten in column B. I pointed out to God that I knew one of them and that was it and I really needed to not fail. So he helped me with some guesswork. Got an 80. Luck? If so, I'm the luckiest guy alive. I could tell you how $5000 fell in my lap, how I won money with a scratch-off ticket to buy Temple Clothing, or how I got an A on a final I never took.
I hope you're not in medical school, or are you planning on having God walk you through every procedure?
-
_Lucretia MacEvil
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1558
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am
The Nehor wrote:Mercury wrote:So when Allah, the FSM or invisible pink unicorns help others they are doing...what? Practicing wishful thinkinking?
Why not just chalk up your good fortune to yourself instead of giving cred to your imaginary friend?
God answers to the name of Allah, he's not hung up on names. I could chalk it up to me but that would be intellectually dishonest. Many of those gifts came after I asked my imaginary friend for them and he told me they were on the way. So my invisible friend has connections and can get things done. Why just today I was given a quiz in a class I'm taking. It was matching ten items in column A to ten in column B. I pointed out to God that I knew one of them and that was it and I really needed to not fail. So he helped me with some guesswork. Got an 80. Luck? If so, I'm the luckiest guy alive. I could tell you how $5000 fell in my lap, how I won money with a scratch-off ticket to buy Temple Clothing, or how I got an A on a final I never took.
I don't see how any of these things are supernatural. Quite commonplace, actually.
-
_DonBradley
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1118
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 6:58 am
Celestial Kingdom,
There can be no doubt from the sermon you cite that Joseph Smith intended to practice animal sacrifice in the Nauvoo Temple. The logic behind this was that practices antedating the Law of Moses had not been abolished with that law. The idea that this latter-day sacrifice was to be a one-time event has developed in Mormondom not because Joseph Smith said anything to justify such a conclusion, but because animal sacrifice offends our modern sensibilities. Smith's logic would seem to require a perpetual practice of animal sacrifice, as this would be a divine law that was not to end with Christ.
Here are a few observations on the topic:
1) According to numerous reports, Joseph Smith occasionally required the sacrifice of an animal during a treasure dig--typically a sheep or a dog.
2) In 3 Nephi, Jesus declared the law of sacrifice done away in him, and said that further animal sacrifices would neither be required nor accepted.
3) In their accounts of the John the Baptist visitation, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery both report that the Baptist gave them authority so "that the sons of Levi may offer again an offering in righteousness." This appears, however, to have first been understood figuratively, with the required "offering" being the proper performance of ordinances.
4) The "sacrifices" and "offerings" performed by Wilford Woodruff and mentioned in D&C 124 and D&C 128 are likely also of this symbolic sort. The Kirtland Temple was essentially a large chapel, and certainly not set up for animal sacrifice. And Smith's D&C 124 reference to offerings in the Nauvoo Temple could easily refer to the performance of ordinances such as baptism for the dead. Smith's expectation of animal sacrifice in the Nauvoo Temple likely evolved after the initial idea of the temple, which is what was presented in D&C 124; and D&C 128 makes the symbolic, vicarious-work-for-the-dead meaning of the "offerings" explict.
5) While John C. Bennett was certainly in the know about a great many things, he was also highly motivated to avenge himself on Joseph Smith. His story that Smith required a sacrifice when Sarah Pratt refused his proposal is dubious and fails to receive the support we would expect if it were true: a) Sarah Pratt fails to mention this damning detail in her later interviews; b) no one else in Smith's inner circle mentions it either; c) Smith was rebuffed by other women as well, some of whom left accounts of his proposals and their refusals, but neither they nor anyone else mentions Smith requiring animal sacrifice to make the situation right.
6) There is some documentation of animal sacrifice having actually occurred. I'm not sure if the evidence I saw for this previously was limited to the Wandle Mace autobiography. I think that it was not, and that there is further documentation of this, but I don't recall for certain.
7) The post-Martyrdom Mormon group headed by James J. Strang practiced apparently practiced animal sacrifice as taught in Strang's Book of the Law of the Lord.
by the way, I came across this reference to Grant Underwood's discussion of Joseph Smith's teachings on animal sacrifice: pp. 69-71 and 180 (fn.53) of The Millenarian World of Early Mormonism.
Don
There can be no doubt from the sermon you cite that Joseph Smith intended to practice animal sacrifice in the Nauvoo Temple. The logic behind this was that practices antedating the Law of Moses had not been abolished with that law. The idea that this latter-day sacrifice was to be a one-time event has developed in Mormondom not because Joseph Smith said anything to justify such a conclusion, but because animal sacrifice offends our modern sensibilities. Smith's logic would seem to require a perpetual practice of animal sacrifice, as this would be a divine law that was not to end with Christ.
Here are a few observations on the topic:
1) According to numerous reports, Joseph Smith occasionally required the sacrifice of an animal during a treasure dig--typically a sheep or a dog.
2) In 3 Nephi, Jesus declared the law of sacrifice done away in him, and said that further animal sacrifices would neither be required nor accepted.
3) In their accounts of the John the Baptist visitation, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery both report that the Baptist gave them authority so "that the sons of Levi may offer again an offering in righteousness." This appears, however, to have first been understood figuratively, with the required "offering" being the proper performance of ordinances.
4) The "sacrifices" and "offerings" performed by Wilford Woodruff and mentioned in D&C 124 and D&C 128 are likely also of this symbolic sort. The Kirtland Temple was essentially a large chapel, and certainly not set up for animal sacrifice. And Smith's D&C 124 reference to offerings in the Nauvoo Temple could easily refer to the performance of ordinances such as baptism for the dead. Smith's expectation of animal sacrifice in the Nauvoo Temple likely evolved after the initial idea of the temple, which is what was presented in D&C 124; and D&C 128 makes the symbolic, vicarious-work-for-the-dead meaning of the "offerings" explict.
5) While John C. Bennett was certainly in the know about a great many things, he was also highly motivated to avenge himself on Joseph Smith. His story that Smith required a sacrifice when Sarah Pratt refused his proposal is dubious and fails to receive the support we would expect if it were true: a) Sarah Pratt fails to mention this damning detail in her later interviews; b) no one else in Smith's inner circle mentions it either; c) Smith was rebuffed by other women as well, some of whom left accounts of his proposals and their refusals, but neither they nor anyone else mentions Smith requiring animal sacrifice to make the situation right.
6) There is some documentation of animal sacrifice having actually occurred. I'm not sure if the evidence I saw for this previously was limited to the Wandle Mace autobiography. I think that it was not, and that there is further documentation of this, but I don't recall for certain.
7) The post-Martyrdom Mormon group headed by James J. Strang practiced apparently practiced animal sacrifice as taught in Strang's Book of the Law of the Lord.
by the way, I came across this reference to Grant Underwood's discussion of Joseph Smith's teachings on animal sacrifice: pp. 69-71 and 180 (fn.53) of The Millenarian World of Early Mormonism.
Don
DISCLAIMER: Life is short. So I'm here to discuss scholarship, not apologetic-critical debate.
-
_CaliforniaKid
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4247
- Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am